Russia invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Perun
- Start date
____no5
Free Man
Azas, you should listen the video first before commenting, the song they play to support Ukraine with its war with Russia is Civil War.
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____no5
Free Man
Sure but if they play a song about the civil war in US in order to do that, then it's a failure, implying Russians & Ukrainians are brothers, one country etc.
I mean even the title of the song is Civil War, not only the content.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
So, I guess you already know, but the cunts have actually blew up Kalhovka dam earlier today and when the water level was at its highest. About 80 cities and villages or more will be drowned. A humanitarian and ecologic catastrophe beyond comprehension. According to Geneva protocols, this is not just another level of supreme dickery, but also an act comparable with using WMDs.
____no5
Free Man
So just like Nordstream, Russians shot themselves in the foot once more; flooding territory they control, depriving Crimea from water and putting the Nuclear Plant in jeopardy.
It doesn’t make too much sense but still, let’s wait and see how it unfolds first before start speculating.
It doesn’t make too much sense but still, let’s wait and see how it unfolds first before start speculating.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
It makes much, much more sense than Ukraine. They, their population are the ones first and foremost flooded, occupied territory or not and Kherson for instance, is Ukraine controlled, not russian (and let's be clear, Russia does not give a damn about the people in their occupied territory, save for Crimea. They are pawns, as demonstrated time and time again), and it just happens right when Ukraine starts their offensive in the east and throws them off. Why would Ukraine want to sabotage a potential southern offfensive. Russia, on the other hand, seems to have avoided (or it has been delayed) a southern offensive before it began. Come on, man.
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____no5
Free Man
I’m not ruling anything out.
From what I know, Bahkmut is lost and since 2 days Ukrainians did some serious attempts with some very heavy losses without even reaching the Russian defence lines.
Zelensky all but admitting they don’t want to do it (we are ready but we need more weapons), Zaluzhny disappeared from the face of the earth, yet the pressure from West is high. So there's your motive. To delay the offensive, prolong their stay in the power. And with that undermining Crimea & Nuclear Plant.
Russians could also have done it (as you said) or even it could be an accident. On that, note that Russians were vocal to worry that Ukrainians could do it since 10 months now, not to mention Russians claim that Ukrainians were shelling it previously. This is why it could even be an accident.
All I say is that let’s wait a bit before having firm conclusions. It will be so much clearer soon. If we see some serious offensive in the next days, I may think Russians did it, but if Zelensky starts going abroad asking for weapons, I may think Ukrainians did it. Or whatever else may happen. Let’s see.
From what I know, Bahkmut is lost and since 2 days Ukrainians did some serious attempts with some very heavy losses without even reaching the Russian defence lines.
Zelensky all but admitting they don’t want to do it (we are ready but we need more weapons), Zaluzhny disappeared from the face of the earth, yet the pressure from West is high. So there's your motive. To delay the offensive, prolong their stay in the power. And with that undermining Crimea & Nuclear Plant.
Russians could also have done it (as you said) or even it could be an accident. On that, note that Russians were vocal to worry that Ukrainians could do it since 10 months now, not to mention Russians claim that Ukrainians were shelling it previously. This is why it could even be an accident.
All I say is that let’s wait a bit before having firm conclusions. It will be so much clearer soon. If we see some serious offensive in the next days, I may think Russians did it, but if Zelensky starts going abroad asking for weapons, I may think Ukrainians did it. Or whatever else may happen. Let’s see.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
From what it looks like, they have learned from their previous mistakes and are poking around to find the Russian weak spots, instead of just relentlessly focusing on one point like they did prior to last year's big offensive.
And this is the point: They will probably have thrown Ukraine off, forcing them to shift focus and change plans.
Azas
At the Eternity's End
russians blew up a dam because:
a) they are very afraid of Ukrainian counteroffensive and want to stop it at any cost.
b) they are telling by this action we are mad, we could blow up nuclear station, let's get to diplomatic means.
None of this will work. Ukrainians not going to stop. If the West will not shit it's pants and will continue to give Ukraine all necessary arms (jets, long range rockets) Crimea may be liberated by the end of this year or next summer.
Also dam was controlled by russians. Ukrainian Himars could not destroy such a massive structure built in 195* when Soviet Union built it's megastructures with the atomic war in the mind.
a) they are very afraid of Ukrainian counteroffensive and want to stop it at any cost.
b) they are telling by this action we are mad, we could blow up nuclear station, let's get to diplomatic means.
None of this will work. Ukrainians not going to stop. If the West will not shit it's pants and will continue to give Ukraine all necessary arms (jets, long range rockets) Crimea may be liberated by the end of this year or next summer.
Also dam was controlled by russians. Ukrainian Himars could not destroy such a massive structure built in 195* when Soviet Union built it's megastructures with the atomic war in the mind.
JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
First of all, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
Second of all, each person relativising this and the war in general (you know what I mean) goes to my ignore list for good.
Same goes for all the "peacemakers", who mostly seem to agree with Farquaad here, especially from half a world away.
Second of all, each person relativising this and the war in general (you know what I mean) goes to my ignore list for good.
Same goes for all the "peacemakers", who mostly seem to agree with Farquaad here, especially from half a world away.
____no5
Free Man
@Yax take a look.
Kirby wisely says there are no conclusions yet. He's not even hinting too heavily to Russians, except the usual stuff of illegal occupation etc.
Even more interesting is to listen to journalists questions; half of them seem suspicious (7:23, 7:58, 9:51 etc) and bear in mind all of those journalists are White House cleared, the cream of establishment media.
Again, this doesn't prove anything, and I absolutely haven't ruled out or concluded anything, but still.
Kirby wisely says there are no conclusions yet. He's not even hinting too heavily to Russians, except the usual stuff of illegal occupation etc.
Even more interesting is to listen to journalists questions; half of them seem suspicious (7:23, 7:58, 9:51 etc) and bear in mind all of those journalists are White House cleared, the cream of establishment media.
Again, this doesn't prove anything, and I absolutely haven't ruled out or concluded anything, but still.
Azas
At the Eternity's End
but still... those damn Ukrainians all did to themselves... they bomb their own cities... rape their women and so on...
no_5 does not condemn russia, all he is doing, he plants seeds of doubt, from which only russia would benefit. His news channels definitely suck big time, pardon my french.
On the bright side, now began emerge yet uncofirmed news that Ukrainians began their offensive in Zaporizhzia region. Fierce fighting around Orikhiv city.
no_5 does not condemn russia, all he is doing, he plants seeds of doubt, from which only russia would benefit. His news channels definitely suck big time, pardon my french.
On the bright side, now began emerge yet uncofirmed news that Ukrainians began their offensive in Zaporizhzia region. Fierce fighting around Orikhiv city.
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Yax
Ancient Mariner
What I object to is that you instantly go on about "yeah it makes no sense for Russia to do this etc - they'd endanger the nuclear power plant!", as if they have not engaged in nuclear threats for over a year, withholden international inspections of the power plant etc, and not to mention carelessly seized control of it by force. It's like you're living in an alternate reality, where the Putin regime is not utterly despicable that has operated through cruelty and, as we've seen with this war, evil, and that pisses me off. So if it's not Russia, then it must be those damn Ukranians that are drowning their own population. or the evil Biden. Do we know at this point? No, but the Putin regime has tortured, murdered, bombed Ukraine and Ukranian citizens and "evacuated" Ukranians into Russia for over a year. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, it makes no sense for Russia to engage in cruelty; they just want to preserve and protect, or whatever the reason might be for them not to play by the playbook they have for I don't know how long.
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Azas
At the Eternity's End
One more... ___no5 look at the mirror and answer to yourself: what do you want to achieve by your constant doubting stance? What? Please, no bla bla bla, you know, war is only black and white. And when you go to the core of the problem: it's russia invaded sovereign country and all that is happening now is consenquences of that criminal act. PERIOD. If there would be no russian invasion, the dam now would be intact, etc.
So, you are either fine with the invasion, or you are so brainwashed by the Kchomsky and his alike, that you prefer for Ukraine to sit at the negotiation table with criminal russia and to give some of it's territories for peace which would not last long, as we already know russia. What do you prefer?
There's no other way, but total Ukraine's victory, for the sake of the whole Europe's security and if you don't see it - shame on you.
So, you are either fine with the invasion, or you are so brainwashed by the Kchomsky and his alike, that you prefer for Ukraine to sit at the negotiation table with criminal russia and to give some of it's territories for peace which would not last long, as we already know russia. What do you prefer?
There's no other way, but total Ukraine's victory, for the sake of the whole Europe's security and if you don't see it - shame on you.
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____no5
Free Man
Because when there is a war, propaganda is a given from both sides. West is obviously on war with Russia, albeit a proxy one for now and for that Western mainstream media cannot be trusted just as Ukrainian or Russian media cannot be trusted; one must take his seed from both sides, if one wants to know the truth.
For instance there are reports pretty reliable that Ukraine has launched a serious offensive during weekend and that they suffered very heavy losses. Western media did not cover that, so probably you don’t know it. But since I do, it’s only natural I doubt about Russians deliberately sabotaging own controlled infrastructure as timing makes no sense.
Remember Nordstream? The media were fast to blame Russia, even it made zero sense, no one seriously does it now.
And that is why even washed White House journalists immediately brought Nordstream case and doubt to Kirby in the video above.
What I ultimately want to know is the truth. So of course I’ll doubt when doubting is due.
To come back to your point @Yax it makes no sense to me that Ukraine did it either. I didn’t even ruled out it being an accident, all I wanted to say was let’s hold our horses for a few days before having firm conclusions. If there were a post condemning Ukraine firmly, I would be fast to counter it as well.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Oh, I know this and I already talked about it. As I said, it seems like they are attempting to find the weak spots in the Russian defences, as per the Clausewitz playbook, in contrast to the precursor to last year's offensive. You are not as supremely informed compared to us stupid sheep of the west as you think.
It's also interesting that you are somehow pairing western and russian media as equally truthful (or not). That is not the case; russian media (aside from the odd independent media that is now operating from outside Russia) are parroting kremlin narrative; it is solely propaganda. They are not held to any international journalist standards. The western, although a bit flawed and selective (this is a war after all), are far more truthful and balanced, and any notion of that Kremlin propaganda and independent media are somehow anywhere near two halves of the truth is bizarre, at best.
You left that out though, and it comes across as you're spinning Kremlin talking points more than a "balanced position" when you leave things hanging like that.
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JudasMyGuide
The resident reactionary recalcitrant
Anyway, to all of you who are not taking the high road and the morally superior third option, where everyone is everything and we will never know the Truth...
According to Insider and Shumanov from Russian Transparency International, about a week before the dam was destroyed, a new legislation has been passed, stating that up until January 2028 there will be no investigation regarding damages to water works done by enemy actions, sabotages and terrorist acts. This is supposed to be in force in Donetsk, Luhan and occupied areas in Ukraine (yes, including the one in question).
The sources I have at the moment are only in Czech, I might check out some English ones for you later, I have restricted access to internet right now.
I don't even know why we're discussing this,
that Russians have never been the good guys, for over a century at least.
According to Insider and Shumanov from Russian Transparency International, about a week before the dam was destroyed, a new legislation has been passed, stating that up until January 2028 there will be no investigation regarding damages to water works done by enemy actions, sabotages and terrorist acts. This is supposed to be in force in Donetsk, Luhan and occupied areas in Ukraine (yes, including the one in question).
The sources I have at the moment are only in Czech, I might check out some English ones for you later, I have restricted access to internet right now.
I don't even know why we're discussing this,
that Russians have never been the good guys, for over a century at least.