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Anonymous
Guest
I hate to say it, but I'm on Cruise's side there.
Seriously, who does that? The guy was a jerk. I mean, Tom Cruise is a busy guy, like or not he's famous, and giving interviews is part of his job that he really doesn't have to do with his level of fame.
I think more about his empty-headed rant about psychology is far more telling of his insanity.
I think more about his empty-headed rant about psychology is far more telling of his insanity.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Cruise is 'Goebbels of Scientology', says German church
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2793072.ece
By Tony Paterson in Berlin
Published: 23 July 2007
The German Protestant Church compared the Hollywood film star Tom Cruise to the Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels yesterday and claimed the actor was using his celebrity status to publicise the controversial Church of Scientology, of which he is a prominent member.
The criticism of Mr Cruise, who is in Germany to make a film about an attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler, was the most vitriolic in a series of attacks on the actor over his membership of Scientology - regarded as a cult in Germany and kept under surveillance.
Thomas Gandow, 60, chief spokesman on religious cults for the German Protestant Church, described Scientology as a "totalitarian organisation" and said that Mr Cruise had become "the Goebbels of Scientology".
In the film Valkyrie ,Tom Cruise, 45, plays Claus von Stauffenberg, a German army officer and aristocrat who tried to assassinate Hitler in 1944 by planting a bomb inside the Nazi leader's East Prussian headquarters. However, Mr Gandow dismissed the film yesterday as "propaganda for Scientology". Mr Gandow added, in a reference to the favourable publicity won by Hitler's Nazi party during the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games: "This film will have the same propaganda advantages for Scientology as the 1936 Olympics had for the Nazis."
Mr Gandow's attack on the actor followed criticism from the German Defence Ministry, which banned the actor from filming at key military sites in Berlin which were authentic locations during the 1944 plot.
Antje Blumenthal, a conservative MP and Scientology critic, said: "Unlike the Nazi propaganda minister, Tom Cruise has the sympathy of the public. As a Scientology ambassador he uses his popularity very cleverly in the interests of the totalitarian sect."
Meanwhile, Dieter Wedel, 46, a veteran German film director, joined other film buffs yesterday in criticising the campaign against the actor. "This sort of discussion damages Germany as a film location. What an actor believes is irrelevant. I agree that Scientology is dangerous, but there are other ways to combat the organisation," he said.
Despite the public row, the film has been quietly awarded sponsorship from the German film board.
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2793072.ece
By Tony Paterson in Berlin
Published: 23 July 2007
The German Protestant Church compared the Hollywood film star Tom Cruise to the Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels yesterday and claimed the actor was using his celebrity status to publicise the controversial Church of Scientology, of which he is a prominent member.
The criticism of Mr Cruise, who is in Germany to make a film about an attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler, was the most vitriolic in a series of attacks on the actor over his membership of Scientology - regarded as a cult in Germany and kept under surveillance.
Thomas Gandow, 60, chief spokesman on religious cults for the German Protestant Church, described Scientology as a "totalitarian organisation" and said that Mr Cruise had become "the Goebbels of Scientology".
In the film Valkyrie ,Tom Cruise, 45, plays Claus von Stauffenberg, a German army officer and aristocrat who tried to assassinate Hitler in 1944 by planting a bomb inside the Nazi leader's East Prussian headquarters. However, Mr Gandow dismissed the film yesterday as "propaganda for Scientology". Mr Gandow added, in a reference to the favourable publicity won by Hitler's Nazi party during the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games: "This film will have the same propaganda advantages for Scientology as the 1936 Olympics had for the Nazis."
Mr Gandow's attack on the actor followed criticism from the German Defence Ministry, which banned the actor from filming at key military sites in Berlin which were authentic locations during the 1944 plot.
Antje Blumenthal, a conservative MP and Scientology critic, said: "Unlike the Nazi propaganda minister, Tom Cruise has the sympathy of the public. As a Scientology ambassador he uses his popularity very cleverly in the interests of the totalitarian sect."
Meanwhile, Dieter Wedel, 46, a veteran German film director, joined other film buffs yesterday in criticising the campaign against the actor. "This sort of discussion damages Germany as a film location. What an actor believes is irrelevant. I agree that Scientology is dangerous, but there are other ways to combat the organisation," he said.
Despite the public row, the film has been quietly awarded sponsorship from the German film board.
Thread now Godwinned.
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Anonymous
Guest
Why is it that the Germans -of all people!- are always the first ones to make utterly inappropriate and ridiculous nazi comparisons?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I’m reading in a Dutch paper that the Germans dislike the Scientology Church so much that they’ve been shadowing followers of Hubbard for six years. They surrected an instance for protection of the German constitution. Agents infiltrated in the ‘sect’, spread fasle rumours about Scientology-members to slander them at their jobs. They bribed people to make false statements.
After that, Scientology made their infamous media campaign, which compared the current Germany with the “old” Germany. Central message:”Nothing much has changed”.
The Germans were outrageous and decided to boycot the film Mission Impossible, also with Tom Cruise. Now the Free State of Bavaria refuses to take Scientology members in the government service.
Germany has 30.000 followers of Hubbard, vs 8 million worldwide.
(this was only the 2nd half of the article, the beginning was about all the things most people already know)
After that, Scientology made their infamous media campaign, which compared the current Germany with the “old” Germany. Central message:”Nothing much has changed”.
The Germans were outrageous and decided to boycot the film Mission Impossible, also with Tom Cruise. Now the Free State of Bavaria refuses to take Scientology members in the government service.
Germany has 30.000 followers of Hubbard, vs 8 million worldwide.
(this was only the 2nd half of the article, the beginning was about all the things most people already know)
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Anonymous
Guest
Forostar said:
I don't believe the "false rumour" and "bribe" parts. Infiltrating agents is common practice in Germany with groups that are being observed for possible harm for the constitutional order. These agents are supposed to observe from the inside whether the group is planning actions that are aimed against the constitution and the state, and if, passing information to the government. The same is being done with political groups that are in the blurred border between legal and illegal, especially neo-nazis. Any sane country with interest in keeping order would do the same.
Of course, there is danger of abuse by the agents. Sometimes, they initiate illegal actions to push the observed group to being outlawed. Whenever this is revealed, there is a media scandal and the agents are put on trial.
Thus, false rumours and bribes may have occured, but at no point were they supported or ordered by the government.
Germans don't trust Scientology. Is that so bad? Scientology is considered a dangerous sect by the German public (this is a fact, not something to argue about), so the government responds to that by observing them in order to check if the public's worries are justified or false. It's called democracy.
Most of my friends hate Tom Cruise and won't go to see any film with him.
The emphasis on "free" is misplaced. "Free State" in this case is a historical title that comes from the Weimar Republic. All it means is that it is "free of the king". Another historical title used by German states is "Free and Hanseatic City" (Hamburg, Bremen).
The "Free State" of Bavaria is in fact in wide criticism in the German public for a multitude of fundamentalist Christian and reactionary politics. It was also the first one to cry for banning veils for women in public services whilst keeping crucifixes in school classes- this caused a major uproar in the rest of Germany. Truth to be spoken, the state of general German politics is never to be measured by Bavaria. More information on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation
The bottom line is: There is no official religious discrimination in Germany. There may be groups of people who practice it, but this is not different from other countries. If you wanted to visit me in the place I currently live in (had to be quick, I'm moving away soon), I could show you Evangelical, Catholic, Orthodox and Baptist churches; the community centres of the Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Community and Free Christians; a Synagogue; a Mosque; and the spots where you are sure to find Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses openly advertising their faith; if you're lucky, you might also run into a Sikh, or a Hindu; I can also take you to meet some neo-Pagan and Wiccan friends of mine. And this is a town of only 100,000 inhabitants.
Also, Scientology is allowed to practice their faith in Germany. In bigger cities, I can show you places where they advertise.
I said this to Forostar earlier: The grade of religious discrimination in Germany is practically non-existant. Scientology is being a dick because they are being singled out by the German public, because it doesn't trust them and considers them dangerous; all the media and government do is respond to public demand. But because of Germany's past of "persecuting religious groups" [SIC!*], everybody is checking three or four times, while other countries do the same or even more than Germany does in terms of religious discrimination. One of the biggest problems is that North Americans do not understand why Europe is so conservative in religious questions, because the North American states were founded on the principle of religious freedom by persecuted religious groups (I'm oversimplifying and distorting here, Duke, I know that). Hence, they allow anyone to do anything they please, while European States -who abandoned religious persecution oh, only two hundred years ago- first check if what religious groups do is good with their constitution, and then allow them to do it. But since Scientology is an American group, nobody expects them to understand it anyway.
*I'm saying it again to make it absolutely clear: The nazis considered Jews a RACE, not a religious group. Religious persecution did exist in the Third Reich, but it was of no importance if compared to persecutions of other groups.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Perun said:
I guess that's an individual matter. I'm not sure what to believe (yet).
Perun said:
But didn't this happen in the thirties and forties as well?
And just in case: what do you consider as a "possible harm" for the constitutional order? And how do we define the constitutional order in this perspective?
Perun said:
I see, but the result is the same for the Scientologists.
Perun said:
A majority of the Polish people do not trust gays. They call it democracy. Is it rightful to forbid gays to play in films? (I'm not saying it is forbidden overthere, but you know what I mean). Where shall we draw the line?
It would be too easy to consider these matters as a "country" problem only.
Perun said:
They do not know how to seperate different matters.
Perun said:
It was a word joke, and imo it fits the topic.
Perun said:
I believe you and also I believe that the SC is not a real religion. Still it seems to me that the Germans should learn to seperate different matters. To play a certain role for a screen picture is something else as to practise a believe or to be linked with certain groups like e.g. communism. I guess you've heard about the insane headhunting in the USA in the fifties. Jews and communists, and even people who had the smallest relations to such people were hunted like witches. Also most Jews had to change their name if they wanted to make it in Hollywood.
A good starter into the subject of the communist-crusade in the USA is this film:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Night ... _Good_Luck.
So, to control those groups in a legal way is fine to me. But to hinder actors in their roles is indeed how things went in the dark past.
Why don’t the Germans first forbid the real neo nazi parties (the political ones especially) and then focus on other dangerous ideologies?
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Anonymous
Guest
Forostar said:
The Federal Republic of Germany is founded on the premise that everybody is free to do as long as it does not interfere with the freedom of other people. The constitutional order is what guarantees that through the means of law and law enforcement. There is a government department for the guarantee of the constitution, which investigates any group that is suspected of planning to overthrow the constitutional order.
Basically, the constitutional order is the Democratic order.
But they ought to accuse the responible ones.
The difference is that gays do not harm society. Scientology, if given the chance, would.
They don't hate Tom Cruise because he is a Scientologist, but because they consider him an arsehole and a bad actor. That's why they're not watching his films.
That is correct, but let's keep in mind here that the German government banning Cruise to film in the building where Stauffenberg was executed because he is a Scientologist remains an accusation. The official reason is because they consider the filming of a Hollywood blockbuster on these grounds is disrespectful of Stauffenberg's memory. The building is almost a sacred ground, and is being guarded by soldiers day and night; on the anniversary of the attempt on Hitlers life, high ranking German politicians make speeches to army recruits here (this year, it was former chancellor Helmut Kohl). I personally believe the fact that Cruise is a Scientologist did not exactly help him to get an approval, but I believe the respect of a district that plays such a fundamental role in Germany's national myth is the main reason.
That's what is happening. Most neo nazi groups are banned and observed. The political nazi parties are under observation 24/7; the problem is that these parties know that and are thus careful in what they are saying and doing. About ten years ago, there was a huge public discussion about banning the NPD, in the course of which it was revealed that the illegal actions made in their name during the period of time being discussed were initiated by government agents. Without wanting to discuss the practice any further (the explanation I gave above is not so much my opinion as much more the official state of things), this goes to show that banning any ideological group in Germany is nearly impossible, so Scientology has nothing to worry about at the moment. In my opinion, the whole matter is a huge misunderstanding, promoted by bad timing and terrible publicity on both sides.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Not watching a movie with a certain actor regardless of the reason is not confusing matters. My high school government teacher won't watch films with certain actors because he disagrees with their politics... why should religion, or just plain hating the guy for no good reason be any different?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
German supports Cruise (only in German language though):
http://www.berlinerumschau.com/index.ph ... maMertens1
Basically this man is part of the film crew and he is (far)related to Von Stauffenberg. He says that it´s clear to him that the movie never can be 100% correct. Like any movie.
He says that the Scientology Church is part of Cruise´s private life. He experienced Cruise as a hardworking and perfectionistic actor. No member-seeking Scientology members have walked over the set yet.
http://www.berlinerumschau.com/index.ph ... maMertens1
Basically this man is part of the film crew and he is (far)related to Von Stauffenberg. He says that it´s clear to him that the movie never can be 100% correct. Like any movie.
He says that the Scientology Church is part of Cruise´s private life. He experienced Cruise as a hardworking and perfectionistic actor. No member-seeking Scientology members have walked over the set yet.
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Anonymous
Guest
Actually, he's an actor (who only has two lines at the start of the film), and he's Stauffenberg's grandson.
That is what he says indeed, but I don't agree with him. What Cruise is doing on the set is his job, and being a professional (I think we can all admit that is what Cruise is), he doesn't let anything else get in his way.
I disagree that Scientology is merely a part of Cruise's private life. His public promotion of it makes it more than that. If he were just going to church (or whatever it is) every Sunday (or whatever day) and practicing it for himself, without losing a word of it in public (note: public. Friends and family are also part of his private life) it would be private. But he is doing more than that.
Schulthess does not seem to notice that aside from Cruise's professional life (his acting job) and his private life, there is a third one in which he puts himself to public attention not as an actor, not as a private person, but as a spokesperson of Scientology.
No, when he's shooting *this* movie. Interesting that he would accept the "repression" of his faith in order to do a job, though. Makes you wonder how strong his conviction really is...
He must be in on the pyramid scheme secret.
He must be in on the pyramid scheme secret.
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Anonymous
Guest
Forostar said:
Nobody says anything else. When he's shooting his movie, he's working. He's not promoting Scientology. But when he's not shooting his movie, when he's not working, he has the nasty habit of promoting Scientology. Then, it isn't private life anymore.
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Anonymous
Guest
Problem is, people hate Tom Cruise.
Because he's farking nuts.