to see how this conversation got started go [a href=\'http://forum.maidenfans.com/index.php?showtopic=9586&st=30&#entry127268\' target=\'_blank\']here[/a]
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's up to each individual what to believe in and how to interpretate the bible.
There is a sense in which that is true, and a sense in which it isn’t. It true in the sense that there aren’t and shouldn’t be any positive laws governing what you believe. It’s up to you and not the government what you believe. And this is true of all beliefs, not just religious ones. If I believe the world is flat, that’s my own fucking business. But of course, the fact that you have the right to regulate your own beliefs does not mean that you can’t be wrong, and that there is no fact of the matter. You can (legally) believe whatever you want about the divinity of Jesus, but whether Jesus actually existed and whether he was indeed the son of God is not up to you.
As one not-so-famous american politician once said: everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but no one is entitled to their own facts.
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 01:22 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 01:22 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]how come people like Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and Nicko Mc Brain believe in the good news?
As far as I know, neither Einstein nor Hawking believe in the biblical narrative. They have both expressed some inclination to believe in some sort of higher power, and while I disagree even with this much, I don’t think only an idiot could have such an inclination. But believing in the narrative details of the bible is like believing that Zeus is really in charge of the thunder: Mythology plain and simple.
[!--QuoteBegin-Silky+Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Silky @ Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, the only proof is four historical documents that many millions of today's population believe. But if you want to be picky and argue that that doesn't prove the Last Supper existed, then where's the proof for any of the other historical references before the 18th Century? We have to trust our sources, and in regards to Jesus' life (not the miracles he performed), the New Testament is pretty accurate [...] Can you not just accept that the Last Supper (or something very similar) probably took place around 2 millenium ago. Is it that hard to believe that a religious teacher ate his last meal before he was crucified by the Roman government with his pupils?
Just because some book says that an event P took place does not --by itself-- count as evidence. You would have to know a great deal about the author and the circumstances of composition before you treat it as evidence. Did this person have first-hand knowledge of the alleged event or is he writing decades and maybe centuries later? Is he a reliable, objective source, or do we have reason to think he might be lying or simply misrepresenting the events as a result of ideological bias? Are there other sources that corroborate the story -- real historical facts and personalities tend to leave a plethora of traces.
So, you ask where is the evidence for any other historical event? Well, by these standards, there is lots and lots of historical evidence out there -- yes, even for events that took place before the 18th century ([span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']why the 18th?[/span]). And while I’m not a biblical scholar, I don’t think there is much evidence of this sort for most of the New testament events. If all you have is a single report (or a small handful from an ideologically homogenous group) of an event or a personality, that is not very suggestive of the accuracy of the report. Add to that the the ideological interest on the part of powerful political and military forces starting in the 4th century AD in the truth of the events related in these texts, and you actually have strong reason to be suspicious. Again, I’m not a biblical (or Roman) scholar, but I don’t there is almost any extra-bilbical first hand accounts of the life of Jesus. Wouldn’t that be rather fantastic if Jesus really did lead the life the Bible claims he did? Also, the life of the biblical Jesus bears an number os striking similarities to events in the lives of pagan mythological heroes suggesting that perhaps the stories of Jesus were fictionalized syntheses of earlier heroic myths such as that of the egyptian deity Horus -- whom most of us already know something about.
[!--QuoteBegin-Silky+Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Silky @ Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]*assembles religious arguments ready for atheist onslaught of criticism* [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/rolleyes.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'rolleyes.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
Bring it on. [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 03:30 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's up to each individual what to believe in and how to interpretate the bible.
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[/quote]There is a sense in which that is true, and a sense in which it isn’t. It true in the sense that there aren’t and shouldn’t be any positive laws governing what you believe. It’s up to you and not the government what you believe. And this is true of all beliefs, not just religious ones. If I believe the world is flat, that’s my own fucking business. But of course, the fact that you have the right to regulate your own beliefs does not mean that you can’t be wrong, and that there is no fact of the matter. You can (legally) believe whatever you want about the divinity of Jesus, but whether Jesus actually existed and whether he was indeed the son of God is not up to you.
As one not-so-famous american politician once said: everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but no one is entitled to their own facts.
[!--QuoteBegin-Conor+Jan 18 2006, 01:22 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Conor @ Jan 18 2006, 01:22 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]how come people like Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking and Nicko Mc Brain believe in the good news?
[snapback]127237[/snapback]
[/quote]As far as I know, neither Einstein nor Hawking believe in the biblical narrative. They have both expressed some inclination to believe in some sort of higher power, and while I disagree even with this much, I don’t think only an idiot could have such an inclination. But believing in the narrative details of the bible is like believing that Zeus is really in charge of the thunder: Mythology plain and simple.
[!--QuoteBegin-Silky+Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Silky @ Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, the only proof is four historical documents that many millions of today's population believe. But if you want to be picky and argue that that doesn't prove the Last Supper existed, then where's the proof for any of the other historical references before the 18th Century? We have to trust our sources, and in regards to Jesus' life (not the miracles he performed), the New Testament is pretty accurate [...] Can you not just accept that the Last Supper (or something very similar) probably took place around 2 millenium ago. Is it that hard to believe that a religious teacher ate his last meal before he was crucified by the Roman government with his pupils?
[snapback]127247[/snapback]
[/quote]Just because some book says that an event P took place does not --by itself-- count as evidence. You would have to know a great deal about the author and the circumstances of composition before you treat it as evidence. Did this person have first-hand knowledge of the alleged event or is he writing decades and maybe centuries later? Is he a reliable, objective source, or do we have reason to think he might be lying or simply misrepresenting the events as a result of ideological bias? Are there other sources that corroborate the story -- real historical facts and personalities tend to leave a plethora of traces.
So, you ask where is the evidence for any other historical event? Well, by these standards, there is lots and lots of historical evidence out there -- yes, even for events that took place before the 18th century ([span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']why the 18th?[/span]). And while I’m not a biblical scholar, I don’t think there is much evidence of this sort for most of the New testament events. If all you have is a single report (or a small handful from an ideologically homogenous group) of an event or a personality, that is not very suggestive of the accuracy of the report. Add to that the the ideological interest on the part of powerful political and military forces starting in the 4th century AD in the truth of the events related in these texts, and you actually have strong reason to be suspicious. Again, I’m not a biblical (or Roman) scholar, but I don’t there is almost any extra-bilbical first hand accounts of the life of Jesus. Wouldn’t that be rather fantastic if Jesus really did lead the life the Bible claims he did? Also, the life of the biblical Jesus bears an number os striking similarities to events in the lives of pagan mythological heroes suggesting that perhaps the stories of Jesus were fictionalized syntheses of earlier heroic myths such as that of the egyptian deity Horus -- whom most of us already know something about.
[!--QuoteBegin-Silky+Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Silky @ Jan 18 2006, 01:42 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]*assembles religious arguments ready for atheist onslaught of criticism* [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/rolleyes.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'rolleyes.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
[snapback]127247[/snapback]
[/quote]Bring it on. [!--emo&--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]