rate all 17 Maiden albums best to worst

[Helmuth Von Moltke]

“Wasting Love” reuses the opening guitar bit from Bruce Dickinson’s “Son Of A Gun”, which Janick had written only 2 years prior. Boom.


And The Legacy, and The Book Of Souls, and Dance Of Death.


His own material and Maiden’s. I already called out “Wasting Love”, the noodley guitar interlude from “Afraid To Shoot Strangers” shows up with only minor changes in “Sign Of The Cross” and elsewhere, the opening to “Lord Of The Flies” is a mild modification of the opening to “From Here To Eternity” from the previous album, etc., etc. It’s all there if you’re paying attention.


Fair point, though it would depend on whether the lifted bits were songwriting or arrangement. Does Steve actually write every note of songs credited solely to him, or does he write lyrics and melody and set up the general structure, but the other players still contribute riffs and solos on their own? I’m assuming that the reuse of the ATSS boring noodling is Janick, since he’s the one playing it, but you’re right that it could be Steve.


Not if it sounds both too similar and not as good, which would be the case here.


I never said he wasn’t. As I’ve mentioned, I dislike roughly 1/3 of his musical ideas, and the bad recycling would go into that category. But Janick is a more blatant offender, IMO.

I get it, you like Janick and see this as an attack, so you feel compelled to leap to his defense. I’ve been here before. But if you look at his work with a critical eye the evidence is all there.

Boom to you too. You have exhibited a blatant double standard here for failing to call out Steve Harris for his self plagiarism. We barely notice it now, but notice how the first line of the first loud verse of Hallowed... is delivered using total pauses in the music for dramatic effect. And notice how the first lines of the first verse of the Trooper is delivered during total pauses in the music for dramatic effect. Somehow, because you would happily pick on Gers, any number of Harris's acts of self plagiarism are conveniently forgotten.

Your double standard is that you like to examine Gers with a "critical eye" and apparently nobody else.

Moreover, if you see 'self plagiarism' in "The Legacy, and The Book Of Souls, and Dance Of Death" (though god forbid how you manage to see that...?), then surely the first song written in this chain is not a case of 'self plagiarism'! Which makes that Dance of Death.

Although what the hell Dance of Death has even got to do with the others is beyond me.

Really grasping at straws here: " the noodley guitar interlude from “Afraid To Shoot Strangers” shows up with only minor changes in “Sign Of The Cross” and elsewhere" !!!

It's not only that I 'like Janick and see this as an attack, so you feel compelled to leap to his defense'. Yes this is part of it, but I'm actually more struck by the extraordinary leaps you make in trying to spot duplication. Several are highly contestable and, moreover, you appear to have entirely missed the point that Janick was recruited into the band 15 years after it formed and has a job to do, which is to generate new music according to a style he had no hand in forging in the first place.

Words of advice Jer: you would make a terrible patent or intellectual property lawyer.

 

[Jer]

Boom to you too. You have exhibited a blatant double standard here for failing to call out Steve Harris for his self plagiarism.

This is whataboutism, and not a response to what I wrote. And I already acknowledged Steve’s foibles, and noted that his recycling is generally in the 1/3 of his ideas I don’t like.

Let’s not ignore that I completely refuted the linchpin of your argument with the “Wasting Love” example, which is why you’re trying to change tack now.

Somehow, because you would happily pick on Gers, any number of Harris's acts of self plagiarism are conveniently forgotten.

This is an invention of your own mind and not anything I actually said or implied.

It's not only that I 'like Janick and see this as an attack, so you feel compelled to leap to his defense'. Yes this is part of it, but I'm actually more struck by the extraordinary leaps you make in trying to spot duplication.

I expressed an opinion which you didn’t like, so you tried to point to something objective to prove me wrong, but I completely refuted that point, which sent you into a tizzy where you had to scramble to find a way to still be right, rather than just accepting that my opinion is different from yours.

It is not an “extraordinary leap” to see that the guitar melody in “Wasting Love” is directly lifted from “Son Of A Gun” — they’re identical. It’s also not extraordinary to call out the similarities between the openings of “The Talisman” and “The Book Of Souls”, or your own example of “Man On The Edge” and “The Evil That Men Do”. But let’s not acknowledge the obvious truth of these examples, let’s go after ones that might have some more subjective wiggle room, because that fits your narrative better. Yawn.

Several are highly contestable and, moreover, you appear to have entirely missed the point that Janick was recruited into the band 15 years after it formed and has a job to do, which is to generate new music according to a style he had no hand in forging in the first place.

More whataboutism, and once again completely ignoring the plagiarism of his own non-Maiden work.

Contest all you like, it’s pretty obvious that your goal here is to push a fixed perspective rather than try to reach any shared understanding on this topic.

Words of advice Jer: you would make a terrible patent or intellectual property lawyer.

Hilarious. Maybe once you demonstrate an understanding of objectivity vs. subjectivity, an ability to acknowledge potential weaknesses in your own position and strength in others’, and an ability to actually stay on topic within a given line of argument, your opinion on that subject will actually start to mean something.

I’m glad you like Janick. I think he’s a mixed bag and I’ve explained why. Sorry you have a problem accepting that.

 

[Diesel 11]

notice how the first line of the first loud verse of Hallowed... is delivered using total pauses in the music for dramatic effect. And notice how the first lines of the first verse of the Trooper is delivered during total pauses in the music for dramatic effect.

This is kind of a silly argument for self plagiarism. It’s the same effect but there’s different music and a different tempo so it’s not the same thing. Are we supposed to say that Megadeth’s “Sweating Bullets” plagiarized Iron Maiden? Or that Maiden plagiarized Black Sabbath’s “War Pigs”?

 

[____no5]

This is kind of a silly argument for self plagiarism. It’s the same effect but there’s different music and a different tempo so it’s not the same thing. Are we supposed to say that Megadeth’s “Sweating Bullets” plagiarized Iron Maiden? Or that Maiden plagiarized Black Sabbath’s “War Pigs”?

I wouldn't call it a plagiarism either but I have to give to @Helmuth Von Moltke that he provided an angle that I never thought before. Quite interesting.
Same as the slow intros -outros you don't call that a plagiarism. It's repeated design philosophy, or whatever.

 

[DJMayes]

This is kind of a silly argument for self plagiarism. It’s the same effect but there’s different music and a different tempo so it’s not the same thing. Are we supposed to say that Megadeth’s “Sweating Bullets” plagiarized Iron Maiden? Or that Maiden plagiarized Black Sabbath’s “War Pigs”?

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, which song is it plagiarising?

 

[Helmuth Von Moltke]

This is whataboutism, and not a response to what I wrote. And I already acknowledged Steve’s foibles, and noted that his recycling is generally in the 1/3 of his ideas I don’t like.

Let’s not ignore that I completely refuted the linchpin of your argument with the “Wasting Love” example, which is why you’re trying to change tack now.


This is an invention of your own mind and not anything I actually said or implied.


I expressed an opinion which you didn’t like, so you tried to point to something objective to prove me wrong, but I completely refuted that point, which sent you into a tizzy where you had to scramble to find a way to still be right, rather than just accepting that my opinion is different from yours.

It is not an “extraordinary leap” to see that the guitar melody in “Wasting Love” is directly lifted from “Son Of A Gun” — they’re identical. It’s also not extraordinary to call out the similarities between the openings of “The Talisman” and “The Book Of Souls”, or your own example of “Man On The Edge” and “The Evil That Men Do”. But let’s not acknowledge the obvious truth of these examples, let’s go after ones that might have some more subjective wiggle room, because that fits your narrative better. Yawn.


More whataboutism, and once again completely ignoring the plagiarism of his own non-Maiden work.

Contest all you like, it’s pretty obvious that your goal here is to push a fixed perspective rather than try to reach any shared understanding on this topic.


Hilarious. Maybe once you demonstrate an understanding of objectivity vs. subjectivity, an ability to acknowledge potential weaknesses in your own position and strength in others’, and an ability to actually stay on topic within a given line of argument, your opinion on that subject will actually start to mean something.

I’m glad you like Janick. I think he’s a mixed bag and I’ve explained why. Sorry you have a problem accepting that.

I accept your opinion of course. But this is a members message board with the right to reply for all, and the arguments you have used to back up your initial grand statement are in some cases questionable, and I was happy to respond. Far from being in a 'tizz' or 'refuted', I'm pleased to debate this topic with you.

Quite a few people can see that the 'self-plagiarizing' argument is a silly an absurd way of casting what you call a 'critical eye' on music that by its nature is conservative, and that doesn't reinvent the wheel on purpose. It is worth you bearing this point in mind, and I don't think you do.

Second, we come to the word 'whataboutism'. I have learned from Twitter, and through my profession as an author, that people often employ this word when they are faced with a comparison that weakens their argument - and they cannot adequately respond to it. So they use 'whataboutism' to try bring it back to the only one thing they want to complain about without having to contend with other examples or of evidence they prefer to ignore.

There is a lot of so-called 'self-plagiarizing' at work in Maiden's music, including in the repeat use of sometimes tired and overused lyrical themes by several of the song writers. And if that covers most of Gers' material, and 1/3 of Steve's, well, that doesn't leave very much? I really think it unfair to ask these guys in their 60s, after 40 years in the game, to be totally novel each and every time. Maiden don't make stylistic shifts between albums like Metallica, so again that needs to be factored in. Maiden albums are like James Bond movies, and the fact you recognise certain themes from one album to the next is part of the fun.

Years ago I wrote a published article about this exact topic. Feel free to take a look: https://intellectquarterly.wordpres...ring-creative-paths-of-iron-maiden-metallica/ if you are interested in this theme of creativity and novelty.

There is no narrative I am advancing. Sure, some Gers songs have his trademarks. Sure, you hear Son of a Gun in Wasting Love, and that's fine. I don't actually like either track very much so there you go, we agree on that at least I'm sure. The 'extraordinary leap' I referred to was in such stretched examples as Afraid to Shoot Strangers and Sign of the Cross. I mean seriously, what????

Gers is not even a songwriter on Sign of the Cross or Afraid to Shoot Strangers.

This is an example of making a truly extraordinary leap. But fair play if you are not a fan of Gers' style of song writing.

 

[Helmuth Von Moltke]

Most of my favorite Iron Maiden songs are written or cowritten by Janick Gers.

He's a very good songwriter, and he has fused folk influences with Maiden's trademark style in a way that really suits the band.

 

[TheMercenary]

IMO, Janick is a good guitar player and an excellent composer. He wrote some of my favorite Maiden songs since he joined the band in 1989. Many of them are killers. There is no problem for me that he uses the same phrases, but rearranged on different tones, if he thinks that it can match with the tracks he wrotes or co-wrote with Steve or Adrian. I think the real problem in there is that some people has the impression to hear the same intros, riffs or solos because many of them have been written on the same key or tonality, but not exactly on the same phrasés. While man can hear some similarities between "The Book Of Souls" and "Rime Of The Ancient Mariner", "Shadows Of The Valley" and "Wasted Years" (for the tapping), "Time Machine" and "The Talisman" or "The Legacy", that's a pure coïncidence (or maybe it's deliberate as a musical signature and a form of continuity through the albums as a part of a long storytelling). The same can be heard on Harris' songs with the same kind of duplication of melodies (listen to "No More Lies", "When The Wild Wind Blows" and "The Red And The Black", for example, with the same celtic patterns).

 

[Diesel 11]

Second, we come to the word 'whataboutism'. I have learned from Twitter, and through my profession as an author, that people often employ this word when they are faced with a comparison that weakens their argument - and they cannot adequately respond to it. So they use 'whataboutism' to try bring it back to the only one thing they want to complain about without having to contend with other examples or of evidence they prefer to ignore.

No, people use this word when someone commits a logical fallacy and counters their argument by calling them a hypocrite. Which is what you did. Jer's post focuses on Janick's recycling of previous work. To some people this is a cool nod, to others it's a boring retread. I'm in the former camp (usually), Jer is in the latter (usually). Jer expresses his belief that Janick's recycling is emblematic of his opinion that Janick is the weakest link the Maiden camp. You meanwhile come along and say, "You're a hypocrite because you never brought up Steve's recycling!" when in reality, the discussion had nothing to do with Steve and you cannot infer from Jer saying, "Janick recycles too much," that he believes that Steve's recycling is good. Therefore you committed the logical fallacy of 'whataboutism' and no wonder Jer brushes it off as such.

It's different if you go, "Well if you don't like Janick's recycling, do you also dislike Steve's?" To which the answer is, as we can see above, yes. Now we know that Jer is not a hypocrite on this matter and we aren't writing lengthy posts of fluff about how he doesn't respond to logical fallacies as if they're arguments.

 

[Helmuth Von Moltke]

No, people use this word when someone commits a logical fallacy and counters their argument by calling them a hypocrite. Which is what you did. Jer's post focuses on Janick's recycling of previous work. To some people this is a cool nod, to others it's a boring retread. I'm in the former camp (usually), Jer is in the latter (usually). Jer expresses his belief that Janick's recycling is emblematic of his opinion that Janick is the weakest link the Maiden camp. You meanwhile come along and say, "You're a hypocrite because you never brought up Steve's recycling!" when in reality, the discussion had nothing to do with Steve and you cannot infer from Jer saying, "Janick recycles too much," that he believes that Steve's recycling is good. Therefore you committed the logical fallacy of 'whataboutism' and no wonder Jer brushes it off as such.

It's different if you go, "Well if you don't like Janick's recycling, do you also dislike Steve's?" To which the answer is, as we can see above, yes. Now we know that Jer is not a hypocrite on this matter and we aren't writing lengthy posts of fluff about how he doesn't respond to logical fallacies as if they're arguments.

No.

I never called Jer a hypocrite, I said he was inconsistent and selective in what he was picking on when it comes to describing recycling in Maiden's repertoire. Hypocrisy is far too strong a word here, it is just inconsistency and selectivity of criticism. And it is frankly shocking to me, given how much recycling Harris has used on some Senjutsu tracks, to still be lining up Janick for special criticism.

There is absolutely no logic, or indeed logical fallacy being spotted, when a person employs the term 'whataboutism'. I'm astonished you think there is. I tend to find 'whataboutism' is used a lazy shorthand, online in particular, to dismiss evidence or information a person doesn't want to deal with. Or when they fail to see its relevance and prefer to stick to a narrower view. Notice how the 'whataboutism' users try use this one word piece of jargonist shorthand to wriggle out of debates. If you don't like fluff, then I don't like one-word avoidance.

Back to the topic and as you have mentioned, Janick can hardly be "the weakest link in the Maiden camp" since he writes far more material that is loved by many fans, and is in far better physical shape, than certain others members of the band these days. On a more fundamnetal level, Nicko is now possibly a weaker link in their continuity due to age and physicality.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, Janick's song writing is actually far stronger than Adrian's on the last three albums. Just my taste, of course, not a criticism of anyone's taste. I just feel bad for Jer than he think Janick topped out on No Prayer... It is odd...

 

[Diesel 11]

No.

I never called Jer a hypocrite, I said he was inconsistent and selective in what he was picking on when it comes to describing recycling in Maiden's repertoire. Hypocrisy is far too strong a word here, it is just inconsistency and selectivity of criticism. And it is frankly shocking to me, given how much recycling Harris has used on some Senjutsu tracks, to still be lining up Janick for special criticism.

My bad, you only implied that he was a hypocrite. Same difference. Regardless, Harris was not the topic on hand. The topic was Janick’s worth in Iron Maiden and we have established that Jer also has issues with Harris so I don’t get what your point even is? He said that Steve has his issues but by and large he likes his contributions, whereas the mixture of retreads and sloppy solos from Janick just don’t cut the muster. What else is there to get? I don’t see Jer as being inconsistent here, you’re just throwing out shit that doesn’t actually undo him.

There is absolutely no logic, or indeed logical fallacy being spotted, when a person employs the term 'whataboutism'. I'm astonished you think there is. I tend to find 'whataboutism' is used a lazy shorthand, online in particular, to dismiss evidence or information a person doesn't want to deal with. Or when they fail to see its relevance and prefer to stick to a narrower view. Notice how the 'whataboutism' users try use this one word piece of jargonist shorthand to wriggle out of debates. If you don't like fluff, then I don't like one-word avoidance.

This whole paragraph is dumb as fuck. Jer didn’t wriggle out of anything, he in fact responded to your logical fallacy (cuz that’s what it is whether you like it or not) with an explanation of his thoughts on Harris too. I know very little of formal debate and even I know this is a horseshit argument. You’re not arguing against Jer’s argument, you’re trying to expand the framework we’re working with to catch Jer off his guard and have him respond to things that don’t matter in the context of the conversation. Come on man, do better.

Back to the topic and as you have mentioned, Janick can hardly be "the weakest link in the Maiden camp" since he writes far more material that is loved by many fans,

This is subjective.

and is in far better physical shape, than certain others members of the band these days. On a more fundamnetal level, Nicko is now possibly a weaker link in their continuity due to age and physicality.

What does this have to do with your contributions? Did you hear Nicko on the last album and the last tour? He’s doing great, in spite of his issues with his health. Just cuz Janick is fit doesn’t mean he’d not be the weakest link if everyone else was overweight, say. It’s down to what you contribute musically, not whether or not you may bring down the band’s longevity.

For the record I think that Dave is the weakest link in the band, but that’s neither here nor there.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, Janick's song writing is actually far stronger than Adrian's on the last three albums. Just my taste, of course, not a criticism of anyone's taste. I just feel bad for Jer than he think Janick topped out on No Prayer... It is odd...

I tend to like Jan’s songs more too, even when he recycles motifs. Solo-wise though he really never improved since NPFTD. Which I don’t care too much about, but for others it’s a sticking issue. Anyway, you’re dead wrong on your opinions on whataboutism, and you don’t even need a degree to understand it, you can just… Google it. But if that’s too hard, I’ll help you out. Here’s the Wikipedia page:

Whataboutism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you need it in another language, try one of the many translations of the article they’ve got. Oh, and remember: never cite Wikipedia as a source, but do check out their own sources so you know where the information is coming from directly. Have fun!

 

[____no5]

Second, we come to the word 'whataboutism'. I have learned from Twitter, and through my profession as an author, that people often employ this word when they are faced with a comparison that weakens their argument - and they cannot adequately respond to it. So they use 'whataboutism' to try bring it back to the only one thing they want to complain about without having to contend with other examples or of evidence they prefer to ignore.

I'm keeping this for later use.
I hear a lot this word around lately. Poor behaviour imo, also similar to when they label to discredit someone, instead of just reply to an argument with another.

 

[Helmuth Von Moltke]

My bad, you only implied that he was a hypocrite. Same difference. Regardless, Harris was not the topic on hand. The topic was Janick’s worth in Iron Maiden and we have established that Jer also has issues with Harris so I don’t get what your point even is? He said that Steve has his issues but by and large he likes his contributions, whereas the mixture of retreads and sloppy solos from Janick just don’t cut the muster. What else is there to get? I don’t see Jer as being inconsistent here, you’re just throwing out shit that doesn’t actually undo him.


This whole paragraph is dumb as fuck. Jer didn’t wriggle out of anything, he in fact responded to your logical fallacy (cuz that’s what it is whether you like it or not) with an explanation of his thoughts on Harris too. I know very little of formal debate and even I know this is a horseshit argument. You’re not arguing against Jer’s argument, you’re trying to expand the framework we’re working with to catch Jer off his guard and have him respond to things that don’t matter in the context of the conversation. Come on man, do better.


This is subjective.


What does this have to do with your contributions? Did you hear Nicko on the last album and the last tour? He’s doing great, in spite of his issues with his health. Just cuz Janick is fit doesn’t mean he’d not be the weakest link if everyone else was overweight, say. It’s down to what you contribute musically, not whether or not you may bring down the band’s longevity.

For the record I think that Dave is the weakest link in the band, but that’s neither here nor there.


I tend to like Jan’s songs more too, even when he recycles motifs. Solo-wise though he really never improved since NPFTD. Which I don’t care too much about, but for others it’s a sticking issue. Anyway, you’re dead wrong on your opinions on whataboutism, and you don’t even need a degree to understand it, you can just… Google it. But if that’s too hard, I’ll help you out. Here’s the Wikipedia page:

Whataboutism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you need it in another language, try one of the many translations of the article they’ve got. Oh, and remember: never cite Wikipedia as a source, but do check out their own sources so you know where the information is coming from directly. Have fun!

I am having fun, because much of what you wrote here is, in your own phraseology, "dumb as fuck".

1. How can the topic at hand be "janick's worth in Maiden" in a thread called "rate all 17 Maiden albums bad to worst". I'm sorry, but the topic is Maiden's music. Please don't try to reinvent it as a focussed discussion about Janick Gers. It is abundantly clear that it is not.

2. You need to do better: who gets to chose the narrowness or breadth of an argument? I was arguing against Jer's specific arguments by pointing out other relevant factors. It is not for you or for anyone else to tell me they are not relevant. For the record, these other relevant factors are:
- the recycling of musical and lyrical ideas by other Maiden members;
- the fact that Janick joined a band 15 years into its existence and has a responsibility to write in a musical style he didn't help to invent;
- the massive difficulty of remaining novel in a band that hardly changes its style nearly 50 years into its existence.
....and other points that you think have no relevance, but only because you are trying to defend someone else's poorly expressed opinion.

3. "This is subjective". Welcome to the world of the arts. But you know that already, naturally.

4. I love Nicko and I agree he did a great on the last tour. But Rod Smallwood, Andy Taylor and the team would certainly disagree with what you have just written: "It’s down to what you contribute musically, not whether or not you may bring down the band’s longevity." So you are honestly telling me that a "weak link in the Maiden chain" is not the band member who could end up asking to retire first? But the band member who writes songs that Jer doesn't like??????

Interesting you think Dave is a "weak link". Not sure why, but hey ho.

5. Don't you dare patronise me. I know full well what is involved in taking on an argument by pointing out the importance and relevance of other examples and counterarguments. And I disagree wholeheartedly that doing so lacks validity. I have three degrees and almost certainly speak better English than you, so you can stow that patronising attitude where the sun does not shine. Anyone who wants to use the word 'whataboutism' in a debate with me will have that word shoved back in their face.

It is lazy and often betrays the fact that a person's arguments start to wither and fall away when properly contextualised.

And, for the record, I did take on Jer's poor arguments directly:

- He at one point grasped at straws by suggesting Janick's guitar noodling on Afraid... sounds like guitar noodling on Sign of the Cross. I pointed out that Janick didn't write either song!!!!
- He also suggested (core to his argument) that "self plagiarism" was a problem for much of Janick's material. So I asked Jer if the earlier songs Janick wrote escaped that criticism, because you cannot start "self plagiarism" until you have at least written a decent body of material.

So I challenged his opinion directly as well as introducing other contextual factors that you may or may not agree with.

....Of course... you can go on trying to defend someone else's poorly thought out and poorly expressed opinion. Odd behaviour for you since, as you admit it, you don't even share that opinion in the first place! "Have fun", as you might say.

Shall we give Janick Jer a break now? Unless you want another round.

 

[Diesel 11]

1. How can the topic at hand be "janick's worth in Maiden" in a thread called "rate all 17 Maiden albums bad to worst". I'm sorry, but the topic is Maiden's music. Please don't try to reinvent it as a focussed discussion about Janick Gers. It is abundantly clear that it is not.

My guy, discussions evolve. Eventually we’ll come out of this and return to the thread’s intent, but the current mini-discussion pertains to Janick’s contributions to Maiden. That is what I’m saying, and you kind of have to bend over backwards to pull the alternate meaning out of my words (especially since you’re so much better at English than I am).

2. You need to do better: who gets to chose the narrowness or breadth of an argument?

Generally the people who agree to debate. The issue here is that Jer did not sign up to debate you. He spoke about how he’s not a fan of Janick, and you decided his opinion could be debated. But instead of debating the topic on hand (Janick’s worth in Maiden, which is already something that’s only gonna be subjective), you added in Steve to the mix (in the logical fallacy called whataboutism), for no reason other than to try to say “Gotcha!” and label Jer a hypocrite. But Jer never said anything about Steve and even responded to your fallacy by agreeing that Steve’s usage of recycling bothers him too. Gotcha?

In fact, people who try to spin and to narrative control try to exclude things from a debate. I was arguing against Jer's specific arguments by pointing out other relevant factors. It is not for you or for anyone else to tell me they are not relevant

Yeah it is if they do not apply to the actual debate.

for the record, these other relevant factors are:
- the recycling of musical and lyrical ideas by other Maiden members;

Not relevant. What another member does has no bearing on what Janick does. It’s possible to dislike all recycling and just pick it up more when Janick does it. It’s possible that Jer thinks that Janick does it poorly and the others do it well. It’s also possible that Jer just didn’t want to bring up other recycling because it has no bearing on what he thinks of Janick. We can bring it up in the discussion, sure, but when Jer is listing reasons he dislikes Janick, he’s not listing reasons he dislikes Steve, he’s listing reasons he dislikes Janick. He could’ve said something like, “And this bothers me with Steve too,” if he wanted, but it’s not necessary. And again, once you brought it up he even clarified that he dislikes it too. But it has nothing to do with Janick himself. Next.

- the fact that Janick joined a band 15 years into its existence and has a responsibility to write in a musical style he didn't help to invent;

Not relevant. As Jer already pointed out, by FOTD he’d already reused the “Son of a Gun” intro in “Wasting Love”. Clearly he can cannibalize his own material and add it into the Maiden canon. And that’s not even to speak of the other stuff he’s redone (both nabbing bits from other Maiden members and his own songs). I genuinely don’t even know what this has to do with your argument and the amount of brain realignment I’m trying to do to make it make sense hurts so, moving on.

- the massive difficulty of remaining novel in a band that hardly changes its style nearly 50 years into its existence)

I agree with you, but I also don’t think this is relevant. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean it’s impossible, nor that due to its hardness one has to like it. Not relevant.

....and others that you seem to think have no relevance, because you are trying to defend someone else's poorly expressed critical opinion.

Jer has been saying the same things since he joined in 2018, and probably also thought them long before. I don’t think these are poorly expressed, he’s very consistent about them.

4. I love Nicko and I agree he is doing great on the last tour. But good god man: Rod Smallwood, Andy Taylor and the team would certainly disagree with what you have just written: "It’s down to what you contribute musically, not whether or not you may bring down the band’s longevity." So you are honestly telling me that a "weak link in the chain" of the members of Maiden is not the one who may end up asking to retire first? But the one who writes songs that Jer doesn't like??????

Okay, I can kind of see how you got here (my wording may not have been very clear), but I’m still surprised a great English speaker like you interpreted it the way you did. Jer is arguing that Janick is Maiden’s weakest link in the songwriting and performance department. So why are we bringing up Nicko being the weakest link in the longevity department? The two are not the same and don’t try to argue that they are.

Interesting you think Dave is a "weak link". Not sure why, but hey ho.

His solos have become sloppy (especially live, although I thought he was better on Senjutsu), and he contributes the least amount of songs aside from Nicko, but the latter is always on point with his drumming. Janick meanwhile brings killer songs and is fun to watch on stage, even though I think his solos are usually meh.

5. Don't you dare patronise me. I know full well what is involved in taking on an argument by pointing out the importance and relevance of other examples and counterarguments, and I disagree wholeheartedly that doing so lacks validity.

Your problem, not mine.

I have three degrees and almost certainly speak far better English than you, so you can stow that patronising attitude where the sun does not shine.

Another logical fallacy on your part, the appeal to accomplishment, where you point out your achievements in order to shield your arguments from criticism. Nicely done.

Also, speaking better English is subjective. I’d certainly love to hear your arguments for why.

Anyone who wants to use the word 'whataboutism' in a debate with me will have that words shoved back in their face.

You missed.

It is lazy and often betrays the fact that a person's arguments start to wither and fall away when properly contextualised.

Actually it just means that you don’t have any valid argument pro Janick aside from, “But Steve does it too!” Do you hear how silly that sounds?

And, for the record, I did take on Jer's poor arguments.
- He at one point grasped at straws by suggesting Janick's guitar noodling on Afraid... sounds like guitar noodling on Sing of the Cross. I pointed out that Janick didn't write either song!!!!

And he acknowledged that he had held some misconceptions about the Maiden songwriting approach.

- He also suggested (core to his argument) that "self plagiarism" was a problem for much of Janick's material. So I asked Jer if the earlier songs Janick wrote escaped that criticism, because you cannot start "self plagiarism" until you have at least written a decent body of material.

And Janick had written a decent body of material by 1990, with White Spirit, Bruce, Gillan, etc. And Jer rightly pointed out the similarity between “Son of a Gun” and “Wasting Love”, which you haven’t even seemed to acknowledge. Just because he hadn’t written a bunch with Maiden doesn’t mean he didn’t pull from his other work and adapt it to the Maiden style.

....Of course... you can go on trying to defend someone else's poorly thought out and poorly expressed opinion. Odd behaviour for you since, as you admit you don't even share that opinion in the first place!

I don’t share his opinion, but I do think it is a logical one. And your poor arguments kind of piss me off, so there’s that.

"Have fun", as you might say.

Or, in Helmuth Von Moltke Venacular English, “Boom to you too.”

 

[LooseCannon]

Seriously? Okay, that's enough, move on from this argument.

 

[srfc]

And Jer rightly pointed out the similarity between “Son of a Gun” and “Wasting Love”

Don't want to weigh into this argument at all but since this keeps being mentioned as if it's some sort of cardinal sin, I feel the need to point out that Son of a Gun and Wasting Love are less similar than loads of Maiden stuff. They start on the same chord alright, but the chord progression is different and the number of bars in the phrase is different as well.

 

[Jer]

Don't want to weigh into this argument at all but since this keeps being mentioned as if it's some sort of cardinal sin, I feel the need to point out that Son of a Gun and Wasting Love are less similar than loads of Maiden stuff. They start on the same chord alright, but the chord progression is different and the number of bars in the phrase is different as well.

Verse guitar on "Wasting Love" is a direct subset of the opening guitar line on "Son Of A Gun". It's not a commentary on the entirety of both songs.

 

[luv2hike]

Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son
A Matter Of Life And Death
Somewhere In Time
The Book Of Souls
Powerslave
Piece Of Mind
Brave New World
Dance Of Death
The Final Frontier
The Number Of The Beast
Iron Maiden
Killers
Senjutsu
Fear Of The Dark
No Prayer For The Dying
The X-Factor
Virtual XI

Like the profile pic. Firefly was awesome.

 

[Iron Lurker]

Anyway, Powerslave is the best Maiden record and Killers is the worst; the rest go up and down.

Killers and "worst" cannot exist in the same sentence...Wanna debate?

j/k

 

[LooseCannon]

I removed all argument and argument-adjacent comments after I asked it to end.