Rant Thread

Jer said:
People are way too thin-skinned these days.
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Jer said:
It shouldn’t hurt your feelings if someone disagrees with your opinion, however forcefully.
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There's something I'd like to say, and it isn't directed to Jer as a person, I just quoted his post. :)

I often hear nowadays that people are too sensitive and certain stuff shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. The problem with that is that people are different when it comes to sensitivity. Others are more thick skinned and may find it difficult to know what it's like to be very sensitive. I'm the type of person that hurts her feelings very easily. Sometimes I'm told "this is an opinion, so you're not allowed to have your feelings hurt." That's like saying "I'm going to hit you on the arm, but I only hit you lightly, so you're not allowed to feel pain." The problem with harsh posts, even if they are just opinions, is that they still hurt, the reaction comes in any case, and it cannot be avoided. What happens after the emotional reaction I can control: I can think about it the whole day and mourn how hurtful it was, or I can think well that was their opinion and that's that. But the problematic part is that when my feelings get hurt, the reaction feels very unpleasant and I'd rather not feel that at all. I don't believe it's possible to desensitize oneself so it wouldn't hurt, so it's just something I need to live with.

On the other hand, I really like sharp and even a bit harsh styles to post, so I wouldn't want people to water down their posts in order to not hurt anyone's feelings. I also feel very strongly that people should be allowed to express negative and critical opinions on a forum, and it would be great if people could be themselves (to the extent that forum rules allow it). I don't have a solution to this, I wouldn't want to get hurt but I also wouldn't want sharp, critical styles to change. The only thing I can think of is if perhaps thick-skinned persons might sometimes keep in mind that sensitive people aren't sensitive on purpose. And when posting about especially touchy subjects, like other people's favourite albums, to maybe leave the very extremely hurtful bits out.
 
When politics come into question, insults get thrown around, people fight, people rage quit forums, get banned. Someone might get asked to explain something they've posted because others consider it misleading, wrong, or a straight out fabrication. But when music comes around, we're talking about opinions and suddenly these posts are impenetrable.

You need to realize that highly subjective opinions come under most scrutiny because they're based on very vague mind concepts. When you're giving out an objective opinion, like "can I make enough money to buy tickets in time", entirely different mental model is used than in "what's my favourite colour". The model will take something what you believe are facts into consideration, regardless of their real accuracy, as a foundation. In this case you think about your hourly rate and when the ticket deadline is. You might end up being wrong, but that's irrelevant. When you think about your favourite colour you don't engage like that. You just spit out your favourite colour. While there are millions of colours you've never truly appreciated, you don't care about them at all. This is what people are afraid when engaging someone in favourite music sort of a discussion. That the person you're talking to is just a parrot who is not willing to engage its brain.

Buddy of mine said he wouldn't give 20 bucks for original Mona Lisa, and then tried his best to explain himself. We had a laugh about it for a few minutes. No-one cares for Mona Lisa so it flew by. But had he been engaged by some arts guy on it, well the arts guy would have to resort to "fuck you and your entire existence" eventually.
 
Lamia020281 said:
Sometimes I'm told "this is an opinion, so you're not allowed to have your feelings hurt." That's like saying "I'm going to hit you on the arm, but I only hit you lightly, so you're not allowed to feel pain." The problem with harsh posts, even if they are just opinions, is that they still hurt, the reaction comes in any case, and it cannot be avoided.
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From your perspective it may seem like "I'm going to hit you on the arm, but I only hit you lightly, so you're not allowed to feel pain." But from the other person’s perspective it could very well seem like “I feel pain when you engage in a normal and authentic exercise of your freedoms, so you need to constrain yourself to the point where I personally feel comfortable.”

Courtesy certainly has its place, but it’s not always admirable to offer it or fair to expect it. If I go to a restaurant with the intention to order pork, and I wind up being seated with a fundamentalist religious person at the table next to mine who would be offended to see someone eat pork, what’s the appropriate behavior? Should I forego a reasonable exercise of my own freedom just to avoid offending some stranger who chose to put themselves in a situation that might expose them to pain, or should I order what I want and let them deal with the consequences of their own choices and feelings?

Note that the calculation changes entirely if I’m inviting an anti-porker to dinner. Now the decisions by definition are around including the person and being mindful of their likes and dislikes, so I would be an asshole to invite them over and then serve pork.

And it changes once again if I’m going to be in an ongoing social interaction with this person, either living in the same home, or working together where we’re going to be eating meals in the same place. It would be unreasonable for this person to expect that no one else in the home or workplace should ever eat pork again, and it would be unreasonable for the others to think that it’s OK to eat pork in front of this person’s face all the time. Different compromises would be possible — people could do their pork eating outside the home, or warn the person when they planned to eat pork so they could leave instead, or they could eat in different places to avoid the issue entirely. If the anti-porker walked in on someone eating pork in a place where that’s allowed, they would probably need to suck it up, and if someone wanted to eat pork in an area where that was designated to be a no-no, they would have to avoid pork and deal with the disappointment.

Lamia020281 said:
The only thing I can think of is if perhaps thick-skinned persons might sometimes keep in mind that sensitive people aren't sensitive on purpose. And when posting about especially touchy subjects, like other people's favourite albums, to maybe leave the very extremely hurtful bits out.
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The problem is that everyone’s sensitivities are different, and in different areas. If the solution is to remove all the edges that anyone might find particularly sharp to avoid hurting outliers, then you’re broadly neutering the conversation and you’re going to wind up with a 1950s sitcom instead of a 2020s HBO drama. Some people would love that outcome, while others would find it incredibly dull. Are the feelings of the people whose freedoms are being constrained any more or less valid than the feelings of the people who are hurt easily?

I would suggest a different solution. The forum rules define baseline acceptable behavior within the forums, and that should be the general standard, like what you’d expect from people in the public square. If people want to set up subsections of the forum or specific threads with tighter restrictions to be more accommodating to certain sensitivities, then people should honor those restrictions within those areas.

The GMAC is a sporting contest with voting and lobbying and winners and losers. It’s a competition and people treat it as such. If someone wanted to create a different thread where people just share albums they like with some specific rules around not making negative comments, I’m sure people would honor that, and the thread could be a safe space for a similar conversation without the rough edges. People who accepted those restrictions would participate, and anyone who violated those restrictions would clearly be an asshole.

Imposing broader restrictions upon general discussion is more like the anti-porker going to a restaurant that serves barbecue and then complaining every time someone orders pork. I would argue that the anti-porker is the one who’s being an asshole in that case, expecting the rest of the world to bend to their own preferences.

All of that said, I think you have a reasonable and self-aware attitude toward this whole thing, and I can’t imagine that anyone would post something with the intention of hurting your feelings. I certainly wouldn’t.
 
It's true that a more thick-skinned person probably cannot always tell which bits are hurtful, simply because stuff like that doesn't hurt them, so how could they know. It's also true that different people find different things hurtful, so there can be no exact rule on what should be left out. I have experience from another place what it's like when critical posts aren't tolerated, and that's really not the way that I'd like it. Also, the meanest humour is sometimes the funniest. :bigsmile: In the GMAC thread, LC had included the warnings about potentially hurt feelings on the instructions, but somehow I forgot about them as the Cup moved on. I also noticed only a short time ago that I probably should have participated on the GMAC with a light, humorous attitude, but instead I have actually been dead serious. Change of attitude wouldn't have removed the sting from the bashing of my fave albums, but it would have made it easier to digest. So, this comes to the conclusion that I thought it would: others can keep their personal style and I deal with the consequences by myself. The positive with that is that it makes me really happy to think people can be themselves when they post. Knowing myself, I can also stay out of the fire if I can't stand the heat, and avoid or just skim through threads I know may rattle me. :) But I thought it was important to spread a bit of info what it feels like to be sensitive. It's not just here, but there are many misconceptions around.
Jer said:
All of that said, I think you have a reasonable and self-aware attitude toward this whole thing, and I can’t imagine that anyone would post something with the intention of hurting your feelings. I certainly wouldn’t.
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Thank you for your kind words, I appreciate it! :)
 
What I got from all this is that with a mirror before my face I'd see pork, camembert, and Futurama, and being thick-skinned I'd have to take the latter instead of fries. There must be some moral in it I'm sure.
 
Lamia020281 said:
Well, I need to write more clearly next time. :bigsmile: Ask Jer if you need details about the pork.
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I wasn't referring to your post specifically but to a series of previous posts.
I'll certainly ask Jer.
I, too, wouldn't post something with the intention of hurting your feelings. Or anyone's for that matter.
Also, this is a metal forum.
 
Magnus said:
I, too, wouldn't post something with the intention of hurting your feelings. Or anyone's for that matter.
Also, this is a metal forum.
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Very kind of you! :) Whether the pork eaten/not eaten should be thin or thick skinned, I do not know. And yes, it's a metal forum but there's been disagreement if votes on GMAC have been metal enough.:D
 
I was gonna post a long rant but I calmed down. Now I will just say that I hope one day I will not be as frustrated and lonely as I have been for as long as I remember.
 
Mars is pretty straightforward if you can spare a few billion. I don't think you'll find any fun there.
 
Why is it that every interview with someone from a band that’s had lineup changes since their “classic era” has to ask if they’re planning a reunion? That would be like asking a divorced person every time you see them if they plan to remarry their ex. It’s insulting and it’s bad music journalism.
 
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