Question about NO PRAYER album

To a degree I'd agree with you as great improvisation is the hardest thing to do well (I don't) but it's not that hard to simply 'do'. I love Dave's tone and style but partly because it's mostly improvised using fast widdles where he repeats a lot of stock licks he knows well, the solos can get a bit repetitive and I think that's partly what makes his solos so instantly recognizable. It's both a blessing and a curse. What he does, he does superbly, but what he does, he was doing superbly in 1980. I did read once that between tours he often doesn't even bother picking up a guitar whereas Adrian is constantly working on his skills, which is why he's improved so much and Dave is just the brilliant shredder he was in 1980.

I just read that back and it may sound a bit harsh but it's not meant to be. I do love Dave's tone and without him I wouldn't play guitar myself.
 
Andrew, I really agree with quite a lot of your analysis. I think, in reality, we're on the exact same wavelength & probably agree 99%.

I do see that Adrian has really improved. And, I certainly don't deny that Adrian's solo stuff really fits the music more than the purely improvised lead work Dave usually does. On TFF, for example, the whole idea of "solos" is really nothing like the old 1980's Maiden solo model --they're very embedded in the music. Some (like on Starblind) are far more extensive; they're just far less showy. All of that is Adrian, I think. His lead work has always been very constructed sounding, but now it really is a part of the music, and not a thing apart. And, I think (as an aside), to people outside Metal fandom, this is far more appealing. I think people who don't like Metal just listen to leads & think --why is this in this track? I agree; but it's why I love Metal.

Still, he's easier to imitate. Dave isn't. And, as you state, Dave's sound/tone, generally, is something else. In fact my main grumble with Adrian is his sound/tone. Part of it is to do with that blending I think, as mentioned above --Adrian probably doesn't want his solo work to standout from the music itself. But, personally, I like to hear solos & I like them to be prominent.

Welcome to the forum Andrew!
(I probably wouldn't have picked up a guitar if it hadn't been for Dave either.)
 
Andrew said:
To me, Maiden work because they gel as a team. They are greater than the sum of their parts and although I think each of them are amongst the best in the world in their field, it is when they come together that the magic starts to happen.
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Hear, hear. Also, welcome to the forum. :)
 
Andrew,

Your post on Adrian (your very first one) is interesting, but I don't agree with much of what you said. For example, how can you say that he has to be credited for Maiden's new direction in 1986 and 1988. On SSoaSS, he contributed to Moonchild, Evil, Madness, which are clearly the simplest songs (and, to me, the weakest) of the album. The more complex and "progressive" ones were clearly Infinite Dreams and the fantastic titletrack. So, here, the facts clearly contradict your position. Adrian has never been a huge fan of progressive rock, and admitted that his firt effort in that direction was Paschendale. As for him being the most creative and open to experiment, I think most of his contributions in the last album are rather weak (I hate to say that, but this album is not so great and is saved by WtWWB, the Man who would be King, The Isle of Avalon and The Talisman). For me, we need to listen to the songs he has written on his own, and his solo stuff is really terrible. He cannot devellop a long song on his own and needs some help. And his so-called epic stuff cannot compare to Hallowed..., To Tame a Land, Ancient Mariner and so on...
And please, dont't take it to harshly ; this is just for the pleasure of discussion.
 
Disagree with the comment on Adrian's solo stuff.
I think Andrew's point (and to a certain extent Cried's) is borne out by H's solo records.
Silver and Gold is nothing like Awoken Broken and Psycho Motel is something else again.
Steve and Bruce probably made Adrian's songs better, but its no coincidence that the Maiden albums without Adrian are the shallowest in terms of depth and variety (please note I did not say they were terrible). For god songs you need a good idea to start with.
Adrian's career is defined by reaching out, expanding and trying new things.
Davey's is defined by his pure, delicious unmistakeable tone.
How fortunate are we that they made ten albums together?
 
harrisdevot said:
Andrew,

Your post on Adrian (your very first one) is interesting, but I don't agree with much of what you said. For example, how can you say that he has to be credited for Maiden's new direction in 1986 and 1988. On SSoaSS, he contributed to Moonchild, Evil, Madness, which are clearly the simplest songs (and, to me, the weakest) of the album. The more complex and "progressive" ones were clearly Infinite Dreams and the fantastic titletrack. So, here, the facts clearly contradict your position. Adrian has never been a huge fan of progressive rock, and admitted that his firt effort in that direction was Paschendale.
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Hear, hear.

harrisdevot said:
And his so-called epic stuff cannot compare to Hallowed..., To Tame a Land, Ancient Mariner and so on...
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Hear, hear.
 
It brings us back to something that was discussed earlier (perhaps in another thread) in regard to song writing generally. If, as Andrew perhaps thinks, Adrian actually contributed quite a lot to SSoaSS, but without being formally credited (i.e. he influenced in a more general way) --then, likewise, the contribution of all the other members (especially the "doesn't write anything" [much] Davey) should be acknowledged in the whole song writing process, even when they are not credited e.g. Powerslave (as I argued somewhere else).

I think it's correct to say --that we are so lucky they're so different/distinct & have given us so much great music.

mckindog: "Davey's is defined by his pure, delicious unmistakeable tone." :D Nicely put.
 
Harris; I both agree and disagree with you :) 'Evil' is an awesome song, which is why it's still a regular feature of the live set and in fact, is the only one from that album that has remained a regular feature of the set. Having said that, I do think that's quite sad as songs like 'Infinite Dreams' are superb and should get a more regular outing. I might equally point out that Adrian does not need help to write a great song and as evidence I am happy to cite 'Wasted Years' and 'Stranger in a Strange Land' but I am equally happy to concede that he works well with others. I don't think that means that without other people he can't write a decent tune; it just means he works well with others and can adapt to the ideas they produce. When I talked about his influence on the direction of the last two albums before he left, I was indeed talking about his general influence as opposed to individual writing credits. When it comes to writing epic tracks, Steve is king - no doubt about it but I think that Adrian's willingness to push the boundaries and experiment undoubtedly helped to move Maiden in that direction and as mckindog pointed out, it can't be entirely coincidental that as soon as Adrian left the albums became much weaker and when he returned, they improved drastically. 'No Prayer For The Dying' and 'Fear of the Dark' are easily the worst albums Maiden have ever made in my opinion and I'm not ashamed of saying that by Maiden's very high standards, I think they were terrible. On 'NPftD' there is only one song I would rate as great, two are OK and the rest are poor (by their standards). On 'FotD' I'd rate two as great songs, another couple as OK and the rest as weak.

I agree 100% with mckindog in that 'Adrian's career is defined by reaching out, expanding and trying new things' and that is vital for Maiden to maintain their vibrancy. It's what helps to keep them fresh and his solo projects are certainly evidence of this. On the question of the quality of 'The Final Frontier', I have a foot in both camps. On the first few listens, I honestly wasn't that struck on it but part of that is because I think it was the result of Adrian pushing the boundaries again. I think it all worked a lot better live. It has since grown on me a bit more and I suspect it will continue to do so. What I dislike most about it is Bruce's vocals which sound painfully strained at times.

All good natured and friendly discussion :D
 
Andrew said:
it can't be entirely coincidental that as soon as Adrian left the albums became much weaker and when he returned, they improved drastically. 'No Prayer For The Dying' and 'Fear of the Dark' are easily the worst albums Maiden have ever made in my opinion and I'm not ashamed of saying that by Maiden's very high standards, I think they were terrible. On 'NPftD' there is only one song I would rate as great, two are OK and the rest are poor (by their standards). On 'FotD' I'd rate two as great songs, another couple as OK and the rest as weak.
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What's new really. Most people who followed Maiden since the eighties have this opinion.
Lots of them turned their back at the band and came out of their holes when Adrian and Bruce rejoined (some found out a few laters even, totally disregarding everything Maiden was doing). Also many "new" fans (1999-) dislike the nineties. The fact that Maiden ignores this period (as far as they're concerned the nineties didn't exist; only the song Fear of the Dark exists) doesn't help much.

I am of the generation in the middle of these groups. I became a fan in 1991 and I really enjoy the nineties albums, though I see Virtual XI as one of the weakest. Still, I find my least favourite Maiden albums listenable and I feel blessed when I see so much negativity with others, when they talk about their least favourites. So, I disagree immensely with you and mckindog (and others who are of this opinion) and I am glad about it.

This is my album ranking, not long after The Final Frontier came out:

1. Somewhere in Time 9,1
2. Seventh Son of a Seventh Son 8,9
3. Powerslave 8,8
4. The Final Frontier 8,5
5. A Matter of Life and Death 8,4
6. No Prayer for the Dying 8,3
6. The X Factor 8,3
8. Iron Maiden 8,1
8. Piece of Mind 8,1
10. Brave New World 8,0
11. Killers 7,8
12. The Number of the Beast 7,7
13. Fear of the Dark 7,6
14. Virtual XI 7,4
15. Dance of Death 7,3

Actually, when I look at this, The Final Frontier surely dropped a few places.
I have become less obsessed with Starblind and I also like The Man Who Would Be King and When the Wild Wind Blows less.

It will probably look like this now, I marked the non-Adrian albums red.:

1. Somewhere in Time
2. Seventh Son of a Seventh Son
3. Powerslave
4. A Matter of Life and Death
5. No Prayer for the Dying
6. The X Factor
7. The Final Frontier
8. Iron Maiden
9. Piece of Mind
10. Brave New World
11. Killers
12. The Number of the Beast
13. Fear of the Dark
14. Virtual XI
15. Dance of Death

In case you can't imagine what someone might like about the nineties, I gladly invite you to have a look at my Top 50 of Maiden songs, where I show what I find strong points of the selections:
http://forum.maidenfans.com/threads/forostars-top-50-iron-maiden-songs.22023/
 
You truly are one the most diverse Maiden fans Forostar, if I were to do my favorite Iron Maiden albums No Prayer would probably make my top 5. I really love the album.
 
Cheers Dityn! Good to see that the positive exceptions from the groups I described are raising there voices here against the negative opinions.
 
And just to be clear Foro (for the neophytes reading this thread), while I rank the Adrian-less albums to be my least favourite, by no means do I consider them bad.
 
I kind of agree with you Forostar. I started listening to Maiden 1991/92, just before FotD came out. I just don't think the material from around this time is that bad. Taking my own personal nostalgia goggles off for a moment though --I can sort of see why people don't think they're that hot. But, by the same standards, I genuinely don't think Maiden came anywhere near SiT/SSoaSS until AMoLaD came out. BNW & DoD don't, in my opinion, compare that well to the nineties either. Who knows what would have happened if Bruce & Adrian hadn't come back though.
 
mckindog said:
And just to be clear Foro (for the neophytes reading this thread), while I rank the Adrian-less albums to be my least favourite, by no means do I consider them bad.
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Understood! :)

By the way, I am very curious if you could make some end stats from the games you're running at the moment.
Take every album, and see how many songs (and which) "died" in which round. In the end you could see which album is the most popular, if we're willing to see that as "a" method, namely seeing albums as the sum of their parts (songs).

@Cried: I have trouble taking my nostalgia goggles off. ;-)
But I still try to judge every song, old and new, as well as I can.
 
Forostar said:
Understood! :)

By the way, I am very curious if you could make some end stats from the games you're running at the moment.
Take every album, and see how many songs (and which) "died" in which round. In the end you could see which album is the most popular, if we're willing to see that as "a" method, namely seeing albums as the sum of their parts (songs).
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The seeming randomness of the current head-to-heads is actually an attempt to seed the 64 songs that got little or no support in Survivor.
When the three current rounds are over we'll have that seeding, then the game itself should provide some of what you are looking for.
 
Forostar said:
I became a fan in 1991 and I really enjoy the nineties albums
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That in itself possibly has quite a bit of influence. People tend to be endeared to the albums they were hearing at the time or first heard. Look at UnknownOne - His favourite song is the first one he heard, I on the other hand rate Dance of Death very high up on my list (possibly even my 2nd favourite) and it was released a month or two before I started listening to maiden (although I first heard Eddie the Great).
 
Crimson Idol said:
That in itself possibly has quite a bit of influence. People tend to be endeared to the albums they were hearing at the time or first heard. Look at UnknownOne - His favourite song is the first one he heard, I on the other hand rate Dance of Death very high up on my list (possibly even my 2nd favourite) and it was released a month or two before I started listening to maiden (although I first heard Eddie the Great).
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I agree with this on principle, but for me, personally, it's the opposite. I usually prefer albums I heard a bit later on because I tire over the ones I heard first. My first Iron Maiden album was AMOLAD, but my favorite is SSOASS, and that was probably the ninth Maiden album I'd heard by then. NPFTD is one of my favorite Maiden albums, and it was the third-to-last I'd heard.

I think for some people, the albums that have to grow on you are the ones that stick. Many of my favorite albums are albums I absolutely hated upon first listen. When I first heard Skunkworks, I thought it was the biggest piece of shit I'd ever heard and a huge zit in Bruce's discography. Now it's my absolute favorite album from anyone, my go-to album. I thought the songs Breakdown and One in a Million from Guns N' Roses were awful when I first heard them, and now they're permanent residents of my top 10 favorite GN'R songs. My second favorite Rush song (Time Stand Still) embarrassed me with its cheesiness when I first heard it. I could go on and on.

Then again, the albums I heard first are also some of my favorites. I love AMOLAD, Balls to Picasso, Moving Pictures, Chinese Democracy, The System Has Failed, etc, even though some of these albums have, well, less than dazzling reviews. So maybe I have a bias there, too.

So I get what you mean by, y'know, you like what you first heard, but I can see it in a polar opposite way, too.
 
Personally, when an album comes out by a band I really like I usually go nuts over it for awhile, but eventually once the hype dies down I don't love it as much. Two recent examples of that are The Final Frontier and A Dramatic Turn of Events by Dream Theater. Thought they would emerge to be my favorites, now they sit on middle to lower end of my rankings for those bands. But it's always the old stuff I go back to and enjoy always. Although the recent Maiden albums have been good, and some have come really close, it is still the old ones that I started on that remain my favorites. There's always an exception to that though, like A Matter of Life and Death, which is my 2nd favorite Maiden album.
 
Kill Devil Hill said:
Then again, the albums I heard first are also some of my favorites. I love AMOLAD, Balls to Picasso, Moving Pictures, Chinese Democracy, The System Has Failed, etc, even though some of these albums have, well, less than dazzling reviews. So maybe I have a bias there, too.
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DoD lists high for me but isn't my favourite. For GnR.. I love all AFD/UYI1+2/CD all equally for different reasons, and cant pic a favourite. System has Failed is also my favourite Deth album, I just don't remember any of the recent ones because all the riffs are so fast and alike, whereas I feel like System is closer to the 'heavy metal' that I like rather than straight up thrash - it does also happen to be the first one I heard though oddly.
 
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