Of Empires and Conquerors

[Anonymous]

!!!!!
what has to do the above post here ?

I explained it.

well, you spoke like a Greek, but what I know after discussions with FYR Macedonians is that they don't consider themselfs Slavs, nor their language a Slavic language (they learn this at schools)

Well, they are the only ones.

for them, Alexander was speaking "their language" and they are his descendants....

That's bullshit. Alexander spoke Greek.

Herodote declare clearly that Macedonians were Greek, but Herodote....

Yes, what about him?

Until the day we find a second Macedonian text, the proofs that Macedonians were rather "Greek" are :
1) they had Greek (Dorian) names (Macedonia, Cleopatre, Thessalonic, Alexander, Philippe, Carterus, Hefestion (hi Perun), Perdikas etc)
2) they had Greek gods
3) the montagne of Olympus is cited in their land (in fact is a reference since then a geo-limit to that land)

and most important of all :
4) they could participate in Olympic games

Those are perfect proofs if you ask me.

as far as I know, there is a project suported by Americans which is not still valid, but when it will be valid (if it will be) the Greek state will not have the right to use the word Macedonia in its official international papers

Macedonia is in Greece, like it or not. The site of Pella is in Greece, and there is a Greek province called Macedonia. It's like forbidding the French to use the word "Aquitaine" in official international papers.

 

[____no5]

(speaking of the belief of FYR Macedonians not to belong to Slavic tribe)

Well, they are the only ones.

not the only ones !!! there are scientists that dupt or support this idea ....and don't forget that the books of FYR M (that are teached in schools) are written by scientists and don't forget the univercities  and the researche institutes of this country

here is a problem that I often mention : science need sponsors to exist so is never 100 % pure

(about the creditability of Herodote)

Yes, what about him?

1) he is not 100 % creditable generally
2) he was protected by the grand father of Alexander (well maybe it was grand grand father I don't remember)

(speaking of the proofs that show the Greekness of Macedonians)

Those are perfect proofs if you ask me.

for me also, but as I see even the scietists not say clearly "yes", what can I say ?

(speaking of a future project)

Macedonia is in Greece, like it or not. The site of Pella is in Greece, and there is a Greek province called Macedonia. It's like forbidding the French to use the word "Aquitaine" in official international papers.

this is not a proof, before some years the city of Pella was belonging to Ottoman Empire!! (as today the region of Ionia belongs to Turkey)

I didn't say that is logic I just mentioned it...... it will be 100 % unfaire if it become valid ....as I mentioned US supported (obviously they have interests in FYR Macedonia)

 

[Genghis Khan]

(speaking of the belief of FYR Macedonians not to belong to Slavic tribe)
not the only ones !!! there are scientists that dupt or support this idea ....and don't forget that the books of FYR M (that are teached in schools) are written by scientists and don't forget the univercities  and the researche institutes of this country

here is a problem that I often mention : science need sponsors to exist so is never 100 % pure

FYRM Macedonian scientists, I have no doubt, are being corrupted by unjust sponsors or the scientists themselves could be nationalistic.  I doubt that non-partisan scientists or historians believe in Alexander being Slavic.

By the way, I'd like you to point me to a source that discusses American interests in FYRM.

 

[____no5]

By the way, I'd like you to point me to a source that discusses American interests in FYRM.

George Soros is the principal sponsor of this country. He has create the institute for Macedonian studies, and generaly is behind the education -historical researches
The very next day after Bush re-elected, US recognized this country as Republic of Macedonia

I don't know if this had to do anything with all these but FYR Macedonia is rumored to be Balkan's "laboratory" of heroin

 

[Anonymous]

The very next day after Bush re-elected, US recognized this country as Republic of Macedonia

Yeah, and did a great job in pissing off the Greeks.

 

[Onhell]

The very next day after Bush re-elected, US recognized this country as Republic of Macedonia

He says a lot of dumb stuff, like "evildoers" and "nucler" hehe, that's right a 5 year old runs the U.S

 

[Genghis Khan]

Wow!  I did not realize that it took only a day to recognize the FYRM.  I'd thought Bush would wait at least until the dust settled.

Wow!  I did not realize that Bush had the mentality of a five year old.  I'd thought it be more like a toddler. 

As far as drug smuggling is concerned, the whole of former Yugoslavia is becoming a popular gateway between the Asian and Middle Eastern drug routes to the rest of Europe.

 

[Onhell]

Wow!  I did not realize that it took only a day to recognize the FYRM.  I'd thought Bush would wait at least until the dust settled.

Wow!  I did not realize that Bush had the mentality of a five year old.  I'd thought it be more like a toddler. 

 

[Urizen]

People who live in FYROM today are a mix of Slavs, maybe Macedonians Greeks, Romans, Turks, Illyrians... the ethnic migrations on the Balkans since the fall of Rome in 476. up to this day make it unpossible for people living in FYROM to be 100, or 80% or whatever ethnically Macedonian Greek.
Keep in mind that one quarter of the population of FYROM is Albanian.

As far as drug smuggling is concerned, the whole of former Yugoslavia is becoming a popular gateway between the Asian and Middle Eastern drug routes to the rest of Europe.

Does anyone forces rich Europeans to take drugs? Of course not. Stop using it and there's no more drug-funded terrorist organisations and rich criminals/governments. Or, legalise drugs completely and you'll probably get the same result.

Wanna know who funds terrorists who thretean world safety and kill innocent people? Every single junkie in the US and Europe funds them

 

[Genghis Khan]

Does anyone forces rich Europeans to take drugs? Of course not. Stop using it and there's no more drug-funded terrorist organisations and rich criminals/governments. Or, legalise drugs completely and you'll probably get the same result.

Wanna know who funds terrorists who thretean world safety and kill innocent people? Every single junkie in the US and Europe funds them

Hey I never BLAMED anyone.  I just stated a matter of fact.  I don't believe in criminalizing any drug.  I think the Swiss and the Dutch have a better method than the USA.  Funny thing is the CIA keeps giving a strange name to Canadians because we decriminalized Mary-Jane.  LOL.  Drug wars are so ridiculous and certain to fail.

 

[Onhell]

People who live in FYROM today are a mix of Slavs, maybe Macedonians Greeks, Romans, Turks, Illyrians... the ethnic migrations on the Balkans since the fall of Rome in 476. up to this day make it unpossible for people living in FYROM to be 100, or 80% or whatever ethnically Macedonian Greek.

NO people is 100 % other than HUMAN. Ethnicity is based on CULTURE.
Keep in mind that one quarter of the population of FYROM is Albanian.

Wanna know who funds terrorists who thretean world safety and kill innocent people? Every single junkie in the US and Europe funds them

Got any FACTS to back that up? or do you get this from tv ads made by american organizations?

 

[Urizen]

I'm keeping it in mind, because I already said that.

What I'm saying is that the whole argument about whether or to what extent people in FYROM who consider themselves to be descendants of ancient Macedonians are ancient Macedonians or are actually Slavs who call themselves Macedonians because of the region's historical name, is made without keeping in mind the migrations and conquests in the last 2000 years that changed the regions ethnical structure.

By ethnicity I mean ancestry. Ethnicity based on culture? Explain this to me a bit more. If I move to Germany and get their citizenship, I become a member of Germany's nation, state, but I'm not ethnically German, because I have no German relatives.

People take drugs in the US and Europe and pay big money for it, more than if they were closer to the source - big part of the drugs they are taking comes from middle east and central Asia, and drug money makes a large part in funding of terrorist organisations coming from or associated with that region of the world.

Facts? This is my opinion based on what I see as obvious and logical.

 

[Anonymous]

People take drugs in the US and Europe and pay big money for it, more than if they were closer to the source - big part of the drugs they are taking comes from middle east and central Asia, and drug money makes a large part in funding of terrorist organisations coming from or associated with that region of the world.

Wrong. The only country that actually has a large-scale drug production and is linked to any kind of currently active international terrorism is Afghanistan, with its production of poppies, which is used for opiates. Fine, you might say, as Afghanistan was and in parts still is a stronghold of Taleban and Al Qaeda. But the Taleban actually -gasp- banned poppy farming. Believe it or not, but this was a major blow for many Afghanns for whom this was the only source of income. If the Taleban/Al Qaeda group is funded by drug production, then why would they ban it?
Terrorist groups are funded with other means, mostly donors and private people. People like Osama bin Laden come from very wealthy families and have businesses that have a huge revenue. Chances are, if you have a house built by a Saudi construction company, then you might be funding the Qaeda, directly or indirectly (usually, these companies are made up of so many branches that it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine who or what presides over them).
Most drugs that are consumed in the western world are produced by illegal groups in tropical areas, such as Colombia, Central Africa or Indochina. The producers either want to gather own wealth or make money to support local political activities, like the FARC in Colombia. So if you are consuming drugs, chances are that you are supporting a civil war in South America, but not international terrorism.

 

[Forostar]

(about: "But the Taleban actually -gasp- banned poppy farming.")

This was 2001.

Today, things are totally different.

92(!) percent of all opium in the world comes from Afghanistan. 1 out of 7 Afghans works in Opium production or trade (worth 3,1 billion dollar).

source (Dutch article of today):
http://www.refdag.nl/artikel/1296899/Op ... roeit.html


Anyway, as you might realize, it's not banned yet. Not yet.

And even if it will be banned, then it would be because of the international community, or let's say the USA and some other countries.

USA would like to wipe away all fields immediately, leaving the majority of the population behind in great poverty. The Netherlands, and some other countries are working out alternative agricultural plans, not doing things to hastily.

Big chance that a number of fields have been destroyed, but I bet that the poppy farming is still continuing on a large scale at the moment.

Actually, the Taliban pay the Afghans to continue their opium production. The Taliban is feeding the Afgan population (in turn for help and loyalty).


More:
As the country continues to rebuild and recover, it is still struggling against poverty, poor infrastructure, large concentration of land mines and other unexploded ordnance on earth, as well as a huge illegal poppy cultivation and opium trade. Afghanistan also remains subject to occasionally violent political jockeying. The country continues to grapple with the Taliban insurgency, the threat of attacks from a few remaining al Qaeda, and instability, particularly in the north, caused by the remaining few semi-independent warlords.

At the start of 2007, reports of the Taliban's increasing presence in Afghanistan led the US to consider longer tours of duty and even an increase in troop numbers. According to a report filed by Robert Burns of Associated Press on January 16, 2007, "U.S. military officials cited new evidence that the Pakistani military, which has long-standing ties to the Taliban movement, has turned a blind eye to the incursions." Also, "The number of insurgent attacks is up 300 percent since September [2006], when the Pakistani government put into effect a peace arrangement with tribal leaders in the north Waziristan area, along Afghanistan's eastern border, a U.S. military intelligence officer told reporters." Opium production has also steadily increased, accounting for one-third to two-third of the country's Gross domestic product.

Still more:
Opium production in Afghanistan -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Prod ... fghanistan

 

[Anonymous]

(about: "But the Taleban actually -gasp- banned poppy farming.")

This was 2001.

Today, things are totally different.

Yes, of course. Just because it was banned officially doesn't mean production stopped. It was just not officially endorsed. Even such an evil group as the Taleban is incapable of full control over a country that has two major roads and one tunnel as the highlight of its infrastructure.

 

[Mmm...Donuts]

Opium, yep, something that don't go away. Hey Perun, aside from the Chinese Opium wars, were there any significant wars about opium in other countries within the same time period?

 

[Anonymous]

To my knowledge, that was the only case of a war about Opium.

 

[Onhell]

Yes, of course. Just because it was banned officially doesn't mean production stopped. It was just not officially endorsed. Even such an evil group as the Taleban is incapable of full control over a country that has two major roads and one tunnel as the highlight of its infrastructure.

Like Prohibition in the 20's in the U.S and their current, and might I add laughable "war on drugs".

 

[Forostar]

Update on the opium production:

UN says record Afghan opium production fueled by Taliban insurgency, government corruption
(Published: August 27, 2007)

KABUL, Afghanistan: Afghan opium poppy cultivation has exploded to a new record high this year, with the multibillion dollar trade now fueled by Taliban militants and corrupt officials in President Hamid Karzai's government, a U.N. report said Monday.

Afghanistan has opium growing on 193,000 hectares (477,000 acres) of land, a 17 percent increase from last year's 165,000 hectares (408,000 acres), the previous a record, according to an annual survey by the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime.

The country now accounts for 93 percent of the global production of opium, the raw material for heroin, and has doubled its output since two years ago, the report said.

"The situation is dramatic and getting worse by the day," said Antonio Maria Costa, the UNODC's executive director.

"No other country in the world has ever had such a large amount of farmland used for illegal activity, beside China 100 years ago," when it was a major opium producer, Costa said in an interview in Kabul....

More: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/ ... losion.php