Of Empires and Conquerors

Perun said:
the "Prussian" Empire, and those coming from the territories that used to be part of the Prussian empire (mostly Brandenburgians and Berliners, though), including me, still refer themselves as Prussians to this day.

Ah yes, 'We are Prussians, and Prussians we shall remain!' - this quote is the thing that is most fresh in my memory since I read about Bismarck.

What sparked my interest lately is that I found out that the last word on his deathbed was 'Serbia'. Do you happen to know something more about this?

During the Berlin Conference in 1878 where the 'Eastern question' was being solved, he shouted on several occasions 'Is world piece going to depend on Serbia's borders?' , but when the decisions were being made he voted in favor of Serbs' interests.
 
I'll simply quote a famed German historian, Sebastian Haffner, on this matter (translation by yours truly):

Nevertheless (reference to Bismarck's success in founding the German Empire and creating a Balance of Powers), Bismarck, despite all his great political abilities and best and honest intentions, could not entirely achieve what he wanted in his time. He himself gave the German Empire an arch-enemy (German keyword: Erbfeind) with its creation, France, which was a consistent and unpacifiable adversary; and, with his policy during and after the Berlin Congress, he paved the way for an alliance between France and Russia. At the same time, Bismarck admitted himself into an intimity with Austria, which conceivably -although Bismarck tried to prevent this- carried conflicts in itself. In contrary to Bismarck's Germany, Austria was not a pacified country. Like Russia, Austria wanted to inherit European Turkey; this made a future conflict between Austria and Russia inevitable. Bismarck's Germany already, already involved itself in this conflict in 1878/79, despite Bismarck's deepest intentions, and could not rid itself from this. As is generally known, in 1914, this conflict became the direct trigger for the First World War.
S. Haffner, Von Bismarck zu Hitler. Ein Rückblick. Munich, 1987.

That's pretty much it: Bismarck considered Serbia a threat for general European peace.
 
Really? On what are you basing that Bismarck thought so? I can't see that from the quote of this historian, he didn't even mentioned Serbia.
 
Like Russia, Austria wanted to inherit European Turkey; this made a future conflict between Austria and Russia inevitable.

Sorry to tell you, but in this context, that includes Serbia.
 
Don't be ashamed Urizen.

It happens often that people from other countries know more of the history of countries with nationalistic / terrible regimes / communism (etc.) than the citizens of those countries themselves. It has purely to do with (school) education. Telling good things of a country's history and leaving the bad things out. Censorism that is.
 
Perun said:
Sorry to tell you, but in this context, that includes Serbia.

No need to be sorry, but there is need to be more clear Per.

I still don't get what you're saying. Are you saying that Serbia was a part of European Turkey?  Because it received autonomy in 1830 and became independent in 1878. It is true that Austria-Hungary wanted to get a hold of the access to Thessaloniki and control the Balkans, and Serbia was an obstacle in AH aspirations. Serbia as an independent South Slavic state on the Balkans was seen as having an influence in the quest of independence  of other South Slavs in the AH, kind of like Balkan's Piedmont. Along with Serbia's traditional orientation toward Russia (except for a short period of time 1881-1890s) that was an enemy of AH because they competed for the control of the Balkans and Russia was an de facto ally with France and Britain who were conflicted with Germany (AH ally) over colonial possesions and spheres of influence. These are the reasons why Serbia was a thorn in AH eye, and possibility of AH attack was becoming serious in the beginning of the 20th century (Customs war 1906-1911 and Annexation crisis in 1908 when AH annexed Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, Russia and Turkey were the countries who objected such an act. And AH threats of an attack on Serbia during the Balkan wars 1912, 1913).

And there of course is the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo on 28th of June 1914, an event that still makes some people say
Serbia caused the WW1. This accusation makes anyone who has elemental knowledge of the issue laugh. Concerning the assasination itself, it is enough to say that the security was weak even though the warnings were given. On Ferdinand the first attack was made when Cubrilovic threw a bomb and the Archduke was uninjured. This was an assasination attempt, and in spite of it the route of Ferdinand's tour through Sarajevo remained unchanged! One hour later he was killed by Gavrilo Princip. A suspicious murder of one man is not what makes 36 countries fight each other for 4 years.

There is also the opinion that this event simply sparked the war, but the war was wanted by  Germany since the start of the 20th century, and the weapons race went on for years(Germany started building a strong navy in 1898. in hope to rival Britain's naval strenght  which shows just for how long the war was anticipated). The war was due to go off during the two Marocan crises.  The first one 1905-1906 seemed as a good opportunity since Russia was busy with events in Asia (war with Japan and the revolution in 1905) and France was not up to the challenge, but the conditions in Germany itself were not favourable because of the Social-Democratic party who was against the war.

In the second Marocan crisis in 1911. Reich's government retreated in front of Great Britain's intervention, and the Germany's allies were not ready for the war also.

The cause of the war of course layed in the progress of international relations at the end of the 19th and early 20th century and conflict of interests between the old colonial powers (Britain, France and later Russia who became their ally) and the states who joined the colonial possesions race late and intended to change the current situation regarding colonial possesions, like Germany and the country that was becoming steadily weaker internally but still wanted to be a great power like Austro-Hungary. Germany after the unification got  significantly stronger and its militaristic army elite wanted as I said a new division of sphers of influence and colonial holdings.

Forostar said:
Don't be ashamed Urizen.

It happens often that people from other countries know more of the history of countries with nationalistic / terrible regimes / communism (etc.) than the citizens of those countries themselves. It has purely to do with (school) education. Telling good things of a country's history and leaving the bad things out. Censorism that is.

Ashamed of what? Forostar you just took someone elses opinion (Perun's) and called it truth.

Just so you know there's no 'terrible, nationalistic regime or communism' in Serbia since 2000. The books I'm learning from are from 2003-2006.
 
Right. The only thing I'm going to say right now is that nobody ever said Serbia caused WWI. The Balkans conflict that involved Serbia served as the trigger to the political crisis that started WWI. It could have been anything else at that time. Everybody who has read history outside of an Age of Empires help file knows that.

Please, Urizen, don't let your nationalism get in the way of rational discussion.

As for the rest, I'm too tired to argue about it right now.
 
Mmm...Donuts said:
Speaking of World War 1, what ever happened to the Serbian assassin of Archduke Ferdinand after he shot him?

He was sentenced to 20 years of jail time, which he spent in wet cells of the prison in Terezin-Czech land, where he died of tuberculosis in 1918.

On the wall of his cell he wrote, with his blood if I'm not mistaken: 'Our shadows will roam around Vienna, walking in the palace, scaring the gentleman.'
                                                                                        'Наше ће сјене, лутати по Бечу, ходити по двору, плашити господу.'


Perun said:
Right. The only thing I'm going to say right now is that nobody ever said Serbia caused WWI. The Balkans conflict that involved Serbia served as the trigger to the political crisis that started WWI.

Well, anti-Serb orientated people like to say that sort of things, and I just wanted to get that out of the way. But we agree that the deep causes of WW1 layed in the conflicts of interests of Great powers which were evident since late 19th century?

And Serbia in late 19th, early 20th century perhaps was a threat to European peace as Bismarck reckoned, but mostly because it was an obstacle in Austro-Hungarian plans and because it started the Eastern question wanting to liberate Serbs under Ottoman rule who treated Christians very bad and especially Serbs after 1878. when they were proclaimed traitors and Turks allowed the persecution of Serbs within the Ottoman empire.

Perun said:
Please, Urizen, don't let your nationalism get in the way of rational discussion.

I'll try, but nationalism, be it for good or bad, is something that comes natural for people living in the Balkans (too bad there's no ironic looking smiley to put here). Anyway, do tell me when nationalism gets in the way of what I'm saying - I hate spoiling nice discussions. :bigsmile:
 
Urizen said:
Well, anti-Serb orientated people like to say that sort of things, and I just wanted to get that out of the way. But we agree that the deep causes of WW1 layed in the conflicts of interests of Great powers which were evident since late 19th century?

Anti-Serb people, like who? I don't know a single "Anti-Serb" historian. As a matter of fact, most people simply don't care for Serbia.

And Serbia in late 19th, early 20th century perhaps was a threat to European peace as Bismarck reckoned, but mostly because it was an obstacle in Austro-Hungarian plans 

That was basically what Haffner said and what I quoted.

and because it started the Eastern question wanting to liberate Serbs under Ottoman rule who treated Christians very bad and especially Serbs after 1878. when they were proclaimed traitors and Turks allowed the persecution of Serbs within the Ottoman empire.

Well, I don't know anything about that. I'm ready to believe the Ottomans treated the Serbs badly when they revolted, because that's what every empire/ruler/whatever did and does when somebody revolts.

I'll try, but nationalism, be it for good or bad, is something that comes natural for people living in the Balkans (too bad there's no ironic looking smiley to put here). Anyway, do tell me when nationalism gets in the way of what I'm saying - I hate spoiling nice discussions. :bigsmile:

So far it's been okay, more or less... but one thing for you to watch out: When somebody says something you think of as bad against Serbia, don't take it personally. It's not an offense against you.

Another thing is, of course, that I'm personally allergic to nationalism of any sort, no matter who it comes from, so if anyone gets a bollocking about that from me, the best thing to say is "Gesundheit" ;)
 
Perun said:
Anti-Serb people, like who? I don't know a single "Anti-Serb" historian.

I don't say historians, but plain anti-Serb people.

Perun said:
As a matter of fact, most people simply don't care for Serbia.

Most people, but what about countries, governments? The 6 wars Serbia fought in the 20th century prove you wrong and are not a sign of being uncared for or unnoticed. I would say most people don't care about Switzerland or Holland, at least in terms of keeping them in mind when contemplating international relations, world affairs.


'Gesundheit :bigsmile:' - you know there's a synonim for this word in Serbian and it is  'Наздравље' (Never heard of it? Ask Goethe :bigsmile:) - it is used like Gesundheit is, when someone sneezes to wish him he sneezes out of health.
 
Urizen said:
I would say most people don't care about Switzerland or Holland, at least in terms of keeping them in mind when contemplating international relations, world affairs.

You got me there Urizen !
I protest !

;)

Soon our Queen will visit Turkey because of 400 years celebration of relations between Turkey and Holland.
Quite some people in Turkey think it's not a great event since Holland has been one of the countries "complaining" recently about Turkey's reflection/acceptance (not!) towards the genocide on the Armenians. (All European Union related of course). (One of the things is the 100% censorism in the school books. Turkish school children learn NOTHING about this genocide).

So Turkey cares :p
 
I'm not anti-Serbia and I could care less about Serbia, I'm not racist and I could care less about what happens in Africa, or China, or Estonia, Andorra, Brazil, etc. I'm called the average dumb-fuck who simply doesn't care about politics. That is MOST people. Who cares how many wars a country fought or didn't, that doesn't mean people do or don't care about it. It is it's political weight that matters, and frankly outside of The U.S, U.K, Germany, France and Russia... relatively speaking the rest of the world doesn't matter.  Sad but true.
 
Forostar said:
You got me there Urizen !
I protest !

;)

Soon our Queen will visit Turkey because of 400 years celebration of relations between Turkey and Holland.
Quite some people in Turkey think it's not a great event since Holland has been one of the countries "complaining" recently about Turkey's reflection/acceptance (not!) towards the genocide on the Armenians. (All European Union related of course). (One of the things is the 100% censorism in the school books. Turkish school children learn NOTHING about this genocide).

So Turkey cares :p

Canada cares.  We still receive beautiful tulips to our lovely Capitol Hill in Ottawa from the Queen to commemorate Canadian-Dutch relations during WWII.
 
Onhell said:
I'm not anti-Serbia and I could care less about Serbia, I'm not racist and I could care less about what happens in Africa, or China, or Estonia, Andorra, Brazil, etc. I'm called the average dumb-fuck who simply doesn't care about politics. That is MOST people. Who cares how many wars a country fought or didn't, that doesn't mean people do or don't care about it. It is it's political weight that matters, and frankly outside of The U.S, U.K, Germany, France and Russia... relatively speaking the rest of the world doesn't matter.  Sad but true.

I wouldn't call you a dumb-fuck for not caring about politics (but ancient Greeks would ::). As I explained I wasn't talking about people, like the Americans say ' the average Joe'. You forgot China and Iran, and people in the US certainly know more than countries you listed, and if the majority doesn't then that's just sad, and shows just what a good job CNN and others have done to keep Americans obedient. And the uncaring of Americans is one of the world's major problems. You don't care that you are producing the biggest amount of pollution, and don't give a damn about Kyoto agreement. It's 'we're the best, and fuck the rest' kind of attitude right?

You see someone getting cocky out in the middle east, then think 'better safe than sorry' , get there, fuck them up, and get the oil, while conserving your own resources, as long as you can get someone elses. Good ol' American common sense. Don't get me wrong, I'm well avare it's just 'do what you gotta do'.  -_-

And just for the record, I didn't meant anything bad about Switzerland and Holland. Those countries are well developed now mostly because they didn't had the unfortune to be in that many wars, which enabled them to prosper.
 
Urizen said:
And just for the record, I didn't meant anything bad about Switzerland and Holland. Those countries are well developed now mostly because they didn't had the unfortune to be in that many wars, which enabled them to prosper.

Again I protest (a bit only ;) ). In the 20th century Holland suffered a lot in WWII !
(and the wars in previous centuries might be toomany to mention right now)


But I admit, after that we didn't have oppression like e.g. in Poland and other eastern European countries.
Also Holland didn't try to oppress other people/countries in Europe, which is not unimportant.
 
@Urizen : I understand so bloody well your point of view !! Also I understand your "complains" about what you call "anti-Serbian".....And of course there are anti-Serbian historicians as there are anti-communist or anti-capitalist historicians or anti-simitic etc etc etc

Historicians they appear to be indifferent but usually they never are.....Let's not be naive here

The modren historical science started from Germany, and as a result we had this hypothesis of Aryan tribe, from a comparison of languages and holy books, but I am not sure if we have a single glass or a chair or whatever from this "tribe"
 
____no5 said:
The modren historical science started from Germany, and as a result we had this hypothesis of Aryan tribe, from a comparison of languages and holy books,

I'm sorry I have to say this, but this quote clearly shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

While it is correct that Historism as a scholarly subject originated in Germany in the first half of the 19th century, this particular branch of historical science has very little to do with history as it is researched and written today. Although historians like Johann Gustav Droysen, Leopold von Ranke or Theodor Mommsen are still considered the godfathers of modern history, the methods and presentation of their works are bitterly antiquated. The absolute focus on individuals and events is something that has been out of practice even in Germany for more than half a century now, and new methods mostly from French and British historiography to form a symbiosis that is known as "Cultural History": Structural and social history, as practiced by the French Annales and at the British universities, like Cambridge or Oxford (don't believe me? Check out any random "Cambridge History of..." or "Oxford History of..." volumes).
So, claiming the German historiography of the 19th century is "modern" is simply wrong.

Next, if the hypothesis of the "aryan race" has an academic background, it is nothing that comes from history (as an academic subject), but from severely twisted forms of anthropology, ethnology, sociology and even politology. While I am the first to admit that these sciences are interwined with history more often than not, during the time nazi ideology came into existence, they were practiced sepparately. An anthropologist or a sociologist would have kept distance from a historian, and vice versa.
However, most evidence that was provided to prove this idea was either pseudo-scientific, or did not have an academic base to begin with. From the beginning on, the arguments which the defenders of such ideas used were more spiritual and esoteric than anything else. Of course they used mostly ancient mythology as a background, but this does not have anything to do with history. When history as a subject was utilised, it was usually bent out of shape, twisted and distorted beyond recognition, with uncomfortable facts simply left out and not mentioned (or, sometimes, their evidence destroyed). This was certainly not in the sense of those who founded historism, because their declared goal was to "show things as they really happened" (actual quote from Leopold von Ranke).

but I am not sure if we have a single glass or a chair or whatever from this "tribe"

Of course not, since it never existed.
 
Perun said:
Of course not, since it never existed.

I'm happy to hear this from you
...but even in the very modern bibliography this indoeuropean hypothesis (which bothers me terribly) is always here, as something self-evident

*edit*

I said that modern historical started from Germany, not that its methods are still modern, you get too much to useless details
it's just evident that there was an evolution with the time, and since then it's not the same thing
 
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