Libya in new hands

Forostar

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
A no-fly zone, one that will work, I'll betcha.

Yes it could have been done earlier, to save more lifes.
Yes Khadafi (I don't care if I spell this bastard's name wrong or not) has threatened to attack civillian targets on and near the Mediterranean Sea.

But NO the world will not keep on watching.

Not this time.

Time to attack, time to get rid of his airfields and other air strategic stuff (radar etc.)
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

It took fucking way too long. Qaddafi could have been ousted by now, many, many lives could have been saved. I am ashamed to be a westerner.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I agree with you mate.

There is one positive side: the length of the time they took, gave room to negotiate with the most stubborn members (Russia and China decided not to vote against it, and the Arab league is for a no fly zone as well), and this has worked, in the voting.

But yes, many lifes could have been saved if it'd be a US-England-France mission (again).
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

That guy is a bloody idiot. I hope he gets punished for what he has done. What exactly a no-fly zone means?
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

NightProwler666 said:
What exactly a no-fly zone means?
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It means that the Libyan air force, which has bombed it's own cities in this war, will be shot down if they attempt to strike again. In this particular case, UN forces are also allowed to do air strikes on their own against the regime. Ground troops are not allowed to be deployed, however.

I just hope this is not going to be a case of "too little, too late".


EDIT: This is from Al Jazeera:

The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) has voted on a resolution authorising a no-fly zone over Libya and "all necessary measures" - code for military action - to protect citizens.

Ten of the council's 15 members voted in favour of the resolution, with Russia, China and Germany among the five that abstained.
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Tonight, I am not only ashamed to be a westerner, but ashamed to be a German. I'm not even going to get started on the load of crap that "my" government is feeding me with currently, or what private and public media (i.e. the one I pay my short money for, not because I use them, but because I am forced to by law) deems important, but this is the last straw. This hypocritical, selfish cuntry fucking needs to wake up. On the other hand, as soon as I have the possibility, I will be gone from here, if I'm lucky. Helplessly needing to watch while this government wishes people wanting only what we have dead. Fuck you, Merkel. Fuck you.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

Perun said:
It means that the Libyan air force, which has bombed it's own cities in this war, will be shot down if they attempt to strike again. In this particular case, UN forces are also allowed to do air strikes on their own against the regime. Ground troops are not allowed to be deployed, however.
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Thanks for the explanation :) I still can't believe that he bombed his own country...
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I read the thread title and thought they finally killed that SOB. :(

I don't have time to say much about the subject but I will post more in a few hours.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I honestly have to say that I'm surprised at how long this has taken.  I remember being in, what JR High when we (USA) bombed the hell out of him.  And, here we are 20 years later, needing to finish the job.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

It was always going to take a while to pass the right channels, thats the nature of politics and diplomacy (that is, diplomacy not with Gaddafi, but with nations such as Russia and China who prefer non-military intervention). This is the downside to doing things properly, which the US previously has decided to ignore, while its slower it at least removes any sense of "imperialism".
The other problem was that it was initially difficult to get reliable sources on what exactly was happening in Libya and even now news that comes through is quite patchy and relies on second-hand information it seems (reports are Benghazi is already under attack and that aircraft have already attacked the airport but its unconfirmed). While this is not an excuse, it makes it difficult argue a legal angle.

Honestly I don't know what to think about my governments seemingly abundant enthusiasm in this particular affair, while I obviously support the Libyan people in sorting their country out and removing a dictator, we are really not in a great position to enforce no-fly zones and become involved in a potentially long conflict. We have only just started removing aircraft carriers and Harrier jump-jets from service yet we are now fronting this? At a time when all we hear these days is "budget cuts"?

I'm quite skeptical about this, I also fear it will only lead to escalation in the area. There is too much going on in the world right now. I'm not so sure Gaddafi will be gone anytime soon.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I have no problem with this. Enterprise is already in the area, and Carrier Group One is deployed on her - the best fighter squadron in the US Navy.

This isn't Iraq - this is someone murdering his own people. We should take a stand every time this happens. It's a question of whether or not unilateral action was better than waiting, and I'm torn.

What is clear is now we can get it done, without anyone looking back and saying, "Hey, assholes, where was the UN?" Now, let's hope we get it done and save as many lives as we can, and help the Libyan revolutionaries get their country back.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

Ok here is my problem. Why has this been going on for this long and nothing has been done. By any country? This is the type of problem that could've been taken care of a lot earlier. Now it is going to be harder and more people are going to die. This should've been over by now.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

They sat down and discussed who's going to get this oil field, who's going to get that oil field.
Gadaffi's a bastard, but so are your western countries.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

Important is that the Arab League has asked the UN to do this. This has nothing to do anymore with the West vs a Middle East regime.
Especially not if Tunesia or Egypt or another country will also send a jet. To the people who don't see the difference with earlier interventions, I say: wake up, and judge the facts.

The whole resolution is more than a no-fly zone it seems. Everything to protect the civilians can be done. One exception: ground forces.
So even if Khadaffi will use tanks instead of bombers to attack Bengazi, this resolution means his tanks can be shot from the sky.

It is expected that England and France will take the lead in the military operations (I mean they will go first).
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

Stallion Duck said:
Ok here is my problem. Why has this been going on for this long and nothing has been done. By any country? This is the type of problem that could've been taken care of a lot earlier. Now it is going to be harder and more people are going to die. This should've been over by now.
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Libya's oil resources. People worry about meddling with countries such as Libya and Iraq in fear of them spoiling their oil, which is highly valuable. As long as these countries provide access and sell the oil, the world doesn't seem to have a problem ignoring dictatorships - better than starting civil wars in their eyes. Several countries also sold weapons to Libya.

While Gaddafi did many terrible things to his people before this, its only now he has started using airstrikes and tanks against them in a very visible way. This is the line that you cross after which the world does something. If he hadn't used his mercenaries to attack, the UN wouldn't have got this agreement, most probably the Libyan people would be having a more successful uprising and protest.

It also costs money to deploy the military and it can be seen as "imperialist" to be taking away countries leaders and having more acceptable ones placed in power - while elections may take place people will always be suspicious of foreign interventions. Not to mention its impractical to "do something" about all the dictators left in the world, Gaddafi isn't the only one you know?
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

Ardius said:
It also costs money to deploy the military and it can be seen as "imperialist" to be taking away countries leaders and having more acceptable ones placed in power - while elections may take place people will always be suspicious of foreign interventions. Not to mention its impractical to "do something" about all the dictators left in the world, Gaddafi isn't the only one you know?
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It is imperialist when you invade a country and depose the dictator without a pretext. It is not imperialist when you support an uprising that embraces the bulk of the people but that is doomed nevertheless because the dictator has the bigger guns.
In that sense, it was right for the international community to wait and see if the rebels can depose Qaddafi on their own at the start. It was not right that, once the rebels did call for a no fly zone, the international community sat and waited for a month.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

Indeed, but like I said earlier, thats politics and diplomacy for you, it slows everything down particularly when you have countries like Russia and China who won't agree to this action (but interestingly abstained in this case). I'm assuming all this time was spent trying convince the other members in the security council that its the correct thing to do, perhaps they managed to convince the opposers to abstain rather than vote against or veto.

The UN isn't really known for quick and decisive action, thats the price you pay for trying to do things the "proper" and legal way.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I think that if there would actually have been real determination to help the people of Libya from the start, it would have gone faster.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I'm not so sure, maybe if the opposing countries were more keen it would have gone quicker, but their worries are quite legitimate. My government has certainly seemed very determined to put in place this no fly zone, if anything that has probably helped speed up the process till now, I don't really see how it could have been any faster without the opposition countries also being in agreement.
 
Re: BYE BYE KHADAFI

I hope this is not too little too late, had we done this 2 weeks ago when the rebels had momentum, this might have been over by now.  In that time, the govt forces have taken back a fair amount of territory and are still probably superior on the ground.  My feeling from the news is that the govt forces are now much better organized than they have been at any point during this ... at this point a no fly zone at best might create a stalemante.  If the Arab League is serious about getting gid of Ghadaffi, the need to send in some tanks, guns (heavy and light), and transport for the rebels.
 
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