Language topic

I can speak, read and write in Hindi (my mother tongue) and English. Also have some knowledge of Chhattisgarhi (though officially received the status of a language, it is actually a dialect).

As far as I've come to know, a language must have it's own grammar to be one, else it is a dialect. Do you guys also agree with it?
 
As far as I've come to know, a language must have it's own grammar to be one, else it is a dialect. Do you guys also agree with it?
Man, this is actually a very difficult questions, but it's not necessarily the case. The conclusion I've come to is a Language is one other Dialects spring from. From this definition LATIN is a language which gave us the dialects of Spanish, Italian, French, Romanian, etc. But don't tell speakers of those languages that, because they get quite defensive lol.
 
As far as I've come to know, a language must have it's own grammar to be one, else it is a dialect. Do you guys also agree with it?

Among other things, this really depends on how you define grammar. Do you mean in terms of individual linguistic structures, or in terms of an actually codified, scientific acknowledged grammar?

Truth is, there are no universally acknowledged criteria as to what constitutes the difference between a dialect and a language. Even linguists often use the terms interchangeably when talking about related languages. The labels tend to be attributed according to other criteria, such as cultural or ethnic identity.

For example, by your criterion of "having its own grammar", Hindi and Urdu would be the same language, because their grammatical features are virtually identical. Both derive from Hindusthani. However, their vocabularies are completely different, and Urdu is far easier to understand for a Persian speaker than for a Hindi speaker because of that. Their identities are also linked to different cultural backgrounds. On the other hand, the two main dialects of Kurdish, Sorani and Kurmanci, are mutually unintelligible based on their completely different grammatical structures, yet they are considered both by Kurdish speakers and by linguists to be dialects of the same language. This is based on the cultural and ethnic identity of speakers, not linguistic criteria. Then there are cases such as Farsi, Dari and Tajik, which differ from each other about as much as British, American and Australian English, and which share the same cultural and literary history, but which are considered three distinct languages even within the same countries.
 
Truth is, there are no universally acknowledged criteria as to what constitutes the difference between a dialect and a language. Even linguists often use the terms interchangeably when talking about related languages. The labels tend to be attributed according to other criteria, such as cultural or ethnic identity.
Thanks for the insight!
For example, by your criterion of "having its own grammar", Hindi and Urdu would be the same language, because their grammatical features are virtually identical.
Actually I was only trying to differentiate between a language and a dialect, not origins of two languages. While Hindi is derived from Sanskrit, Urdu has influences from Arabic, Persian and even Turkish yet has it's origins in Hindi. But ultimately both are independent languages, irrespective of their cultural/historical origins.
 
Actually I was only trying to differentiate between a language and a dialect, not origins of two languages. While Hindi is derived from Sanskrit, Urdu has influences from Arabic, Persian and even Turkish yet has it's origins in Hindi. But ultimately both are independent languages, irrespective of their cultural/historical origins.

I know you were, but the origin is an important factor in this differentiation. How much time has to pass and how much has to happen within the language for two dialects to be considered distinct languages? For example, before 1903, nobody ever thought of considering Macedonian a distinct language - it was considered a western dialect of Bulgarian, and was in fact one of the candidates for the codification of a high Bulgarian language. It was only "officially" declared a language (by the ruling Communist group of Yugoslav Macedonia) in 1944. The languages remain mutually intelligible, and there are still people around who lived in a time when there was no such thing as a Macedonian language.

I fully agree that Hindi and Urdu are two distinct languages. They derive from the same source language, Hindusthani, but Hindi is a Sanskritised version, Urdu a Persianised (plus all the influences you mentioned). My point was that they share the same grammar, which would by the definition you suggested, make them the same language, just with different vocabularies. There are plenty of cases in which the grammatical differences between languages are negligible, but the developments in phonology (which yes, technically constitutes part of the grammar), vocabulary, idiomology, sometimes even script can turn them into completely distinct entities. Ottoman Turkish and Modern Standard Turkish for example are classified as different languages, because Modern Standard Turkish is written in Latin script, removes to a very high degree Arabic and Persian vocabulary and even several phonemes which were deemed "Arabic".
 
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