Language topic

I can speak, read and write in Hindi (my mother tongue) and English. Also have some knowledge of Chhattisgarhi (though officially received the status of a language, it is actually a dialect).

As far as I've come to know, a language must have it's own grammar to be one, else it is a dialect. Do you guys also agree with it?
 
As far as I've come to know, a language must have it's own grammar to be one, else it is a dialect. Do you guys also agree with it?
Man, this is actually a very difficult questions, but it's not necessarily the case. The conclusion I've come to is a Language is one other Dialects spring from. From this definition LATIN is a language which gave us the dialects of Spanish, Italian, French, Romanian, etc. But don't tell speakers of those languages that, because they get quite defensive lol.
 
As far as I've come to know, a language must have it's own grammar to be one, else it is a dialect. Do you guys also agree with it?

Among other things, this really depends on how you define grammar. Do you mean in terms of individual linguistic structures, or in terms of an actually codified, scientific acknowledged grammar?

Truth is, there are no universally acknowledged criteria as to what constitutes the difference between a dialect and a language. Even linguists often use the terms interchangeably when talking about related languages. The labels tend to be attributed according to other criteria, such as cultural or ethnic identity.

For example, by your criterion of "having its own grammar", Hindi and Urdu would be the same language, because their grammatical features are virtually identical. Both derive from Hindusthani. However, their vocabularies are completely different, and Urdu is far easier to understand for a Persian speaker than for a Hindi speaker because of that. Their identities are also linked to different cultural backgrounds. On the other hand, the two main dialects of Kurdish, Sorani and Kurmanci, are mutually unintelligible based on their completely different grammatical structures, yet they are considered both by Kurdish speakers and by linguists to be dialects of the same language. This is based on the cultural and ethnic identity of speakers, not linguistic criteria. Then there are cases such as Farsi, Dari and Tajik, which differ from each other about as much as British, American and Australian English, and which share the same cultural and literary history, but which are considered three distinct languages even within the same countries.
 
Truth is, there are no universally acknowledged criteria as to what constitutes the difference between a dialect and a language. Even linguists often use the terms interchangeably when talking about related languages. The labels tend to be attributed according to other criteria, such as cultural or ethnic identity.
Thanks for the insight!
For example, by your criterion of "having its own grammar", Hindi and Urdu would be the same language, because their grammatical features are virtually identical.
Actually I was only trying to differentiate between a language and a dialect, not origins of two languages. While Hindi is derived from Sanskrit, Urdu has influences from Arabic, Persian and even Turkish yet has it's origins in Hindi. But ultimately both are independent languages, irrespective of their cultural/historical origins.
 
Actually I was only trying to differentiate between a language and a dialect, not origins of two languages. While Hindi is derived from Sanskrit, Urdu has influences from Arabic, Persian and even Turkish yet has it's origins in Hindi. But ultimately both are independent languages, irrespective of their cultural/historical origins.

I know you were, but the origin is an important factor in this differentiation. How much time has to pass and how much has to happen within the language for two dialects to be considered distinct languages? For example, before 1903, nobody ever thought of considering Macedonian a distinct language - it was considered a western dialect of Bulgarian, and was in fact one of the candidates for the codification of a high Bulgarian language. It was only "officially" declared a language (by the ruling Communist group of Yugoslav Macedonia) in 1944. The languages remain mutually intelligible, and there are still people around who lived in a time when there was no such thing as a Macedonian language.

I fully agree that Hindi and Urdu are two distinct languages. They derive from the same source language, Hindusthani, but Hindi is a Sanskritised version, Urdu a Persianised (plus all the influences you mentioned). My point was that they share the same grammar, which would by the definition you suggested, make them the same language, just with different vocabularies. There are plenty of cases in which the grammatical differences between languages are negligible, but the developments in phonology (which yes, technically constitutes part of the grammar), vocabulary, idiomology, sometimes even script can turn them into completely distinct entities. Ottoman Turkish and Modern Standard Turkish for example are classified as different languages, because Modern Standard Turkish is written in Latin script, removes to a very high degree Arabic and Persian vocabulary and even several phonemes which were deemed "Arabic".
 
Heh... okay, I hope this doesn't come across as too weird.

So, the thing is, I've been writing again. After several years of being unable to write anything apart from non-fic stuff (I did write some pretty sweet theological theses in the meantime), I feel really good about writing again. Thing is, I had to switch to English - I love Czech, but it's a very inflexible language, it can be beautiful, but also really clunky and I just don't vibe with it in prose. I can write poetry in Czech, I am - as people attest - a pretty good orator, but I just can't seem to be able to wright down stuff that would sound right to me.

In English, I'm on fire, I can write a page and a half every sitting. I suppose it might be also because of the fact I've been reading and listening primarily to English media for quite some time. Whether it's reading or listening to audiobooks, I'm going through the Bible in a Year while driving, reading Stormlight Archive on my phone in a queue and so on.

In fact, it was the ineffable beauty of Tad Williams' prose (the best living writer, fantasy or otherwise) that inspired me to go and do it myself. I'm definitely not up to his level, nor will I ever be, but I find inspiration there.

So, my question would be - and please don't think about my writing here on this forum, which is definitely uncombed and uncouth and severely lacking - is there anything, any type of pet peeve that foreign speakers do in English prose (or poetry!) that you personally hate? Whether it's overuse of certain words or being too cavalier towards the proper word order or insufficient lexical variety ... anything, really. I'm just wondering.
 
So, my question would be - and please don't think about my writing here on this forum, which is definitely uncombed and uncouth and severely lacking - is there anything, any type of pet peeve that foreign speakers do in English prose (or poetry!) that you personally hate? Whether it's overuse of certain words or being too cavalier towards the proper word order or insufficient lexical variety ... anything, really. I'm just wondering.

I don't know if they "hate" it, but something I do (well, did... for the most part), is sound pretentious or like a 13-year-old trying to show off. In short stay away from "big words" unless absolutely necessary, at least in prose, in poetry knock yourself out. For example, saying, "Thunderous!" when saying "loud" is fine. This of course is when it's needless, if the story calls for thunderous then use it, but as second language learners we tend to like to go for the fences and it comes out unnatural, pretentious or verbose.

EDIT: In fact just this weekend I went over to a friends house and we talked about that and we shared stories in both Spanish and English, talked about the pros and cons of writing in each language and I shared my "Ex trilogy," and told him I had planned for more (at least 2 more installments), but quit after the third after I found it forced, rambling and unhappy with the "flow," of it. After reading it he said, "It's not bad, but definitely different from the first two, nothing a few rewrites can't fix." Happy with the feedback I've decided to do just that, "fix" the third part and finish the last two I had planned.
 
I don't know if they "hate" it, but something I do (well, did... for the most part), is sound pretentious or like a 13-year-old trying to show off. In short stay away from "big words" unless absolutely necessary, at least in prose, in poetry knock yourself out. For example, saying, "Thunderous!" when saying "loud" is fine. This of course is when it's needless, if the story calls for thunderous then use it, but as second language learners we tend to like to go for the fences and it comes out unnatural, pretentious or verbose.

EDIT: In fact just this weekend I went over to a friends house and we talked about that and we shared stories in both Spanish and English, talked about the pros and cons of writing in each language and I shared my "Ex trilogy," and told him I had planned for more (at least 2 more installments), but quit after the third after I found it forced, rambling and unhappy with the "flow," of it. After reading it he said, "It's not bad, but definitely different from the first two, nothing a few rewrites can't fix." Happy with the feedback I've decided to do just that, "fix" the third part and finish the last two I had planned.

Sad jams.
This really goes against the fact I'm recently inspired and awed by Tad Williams (who is incredibly flowery and poetic, so much it just grabs you by itself, especially when read aloud by Wincott in the audiobook version)... and despite my tendencies to be flowery even in Czech...but thanks, I appreciate the advice, I'll try to keep it in mind and to implement it as much as possible.

Note to self - don't overFromSoftwarise things: Check

Messmer4.jpg

:D
 
Ok, few notes then.

1. If you are going for a particular style or rhythm, then do it.
2. Writing is art and at the end of the day it's about self expression, critics be damned. If you're happy with it now, it matters little if you're unhappy with it in 5 years.

The advice from my previous post can be best explained as, there's a difference between a 5 year old riding a bike and saying, "Look ma! No hands!" and a 20 year old (or older), saying "Look ma! No hands!" Again, unless the 20 year old is intentionally going for awkward, cringy humor.
 
No, you are right. It's true I have certain preferences, which come across in both Czech and English, within my self-expression. I, for one, lament and despise the fact that all languages tend to be simplified over time and that we are leaving some of the beauty of the past far behind. In Czech, for example, I am one of the few people I know who still uses transgressives even in speech - which is usually seen as archaic or literary, definitely uncommon and old-fashioned. Although with their elimination, we are even losing the ways to express what we used to be able to; by using transgressives in Czech, we used to be able to use future perfect or past perfect tense once, for example... but I realise that's a "me thing".

Also, yeah, I'm old fashioned and poetic by nature, I like to read stuff like that and I dislike the general development of prose, whether it's been caused by Hemingway or television. As an amateur Medievalist and lay theologian (and originally more of a poet than a prose writer), I have these ... queer tendencies. Like, I don't want to write or read about dwarves (or dwarfs), I want my dwarf to be a dwergh (pl.: dwerghes or yet better, dwarrows). I shiver with excitement from the idea of someone who'd "hasten to heed thy rede". Of your enemies being "worsted". (while I recognise these terms' abstrusity :D)

Or, from the less autistic side, when Williams writes something like

"No, life in the forest was not a tenth so glorious as he had imagined it in those long-ago Hayholt afternoons, crouching in the stables smelling hay and tack leather, listening to Shem’s stories. The mighty Oldheart was a dark and miserly host, jealous of doling comforts out to strangers. Hiding in thorny brush to sleep away the hours of sun, making his damp, shivering way through the darkness beneath the tree-netted moon, or scuttling furtively through the garden plots in his sagging, too-large cloak, Simon knew he was more rabbit than rogue."
I feel such pure bliss it seems I could almost live off the words alone, sating all my needs solely by that.


That said, I should be aware of the fact people in general don't want that - don't like that. People like simpler stuff ... and say even of Tolkien that he's too flowery and old-fashioned. Heck, already more than once I've seen the notion that even wanting to have proper grammar is "a classist notion".
(although it's true that even fantasy fans - i. e. fans of genre literature - tend to like Tad Williams or even Pat Rothfuss, who definitely go against the flow in that regard)

So I guess it's a bit about balance - both bridling the worst excesses and idiosyncrasies and being prepared for accusations of elitism, classism, puerility or pretentiousness, consoling myself with the notion of being an artist of unquestionable integrity or a weirdo – maybe a bit of both.

But that's not necessarily a second language thing for me, like I said, I'm like that in my native tongue also.
 
Sorry it's taken a while to reply, but life got a tad busy.

No, you are right. It's true I have certain preferences, which come across in both Czech and English, within my self-expression. I, for one, lament and despise the fact that all languages tend to be simplified over time and that we are leaving some of the beauty of the past far behind. In Czech, for example, I am one of the few people I know who still uses transgressives even in speech - which is usually seen as archaic or literary, definitely uncommon and old-fashioned. Although with their elimination, we are even losing the ways to express what we used to be able to; by using transgressives in Czech, we used to be able to use future perfect or past perfect tense once, for example... but I realise that's a "me thing".
That's good that you have a "you thing." I get the "old-fashioned" thing too. I remember writing a poem in high school and wrote, " 'Twas the home of old man Martin...." The teacher told me to change it to "It was" because "twas" was, and I quote, "too old fashioned." and I said, "I know, that's what I'm going for." She made me change it anyway. There have been few editorial changes I've actually liked. I've been more open to them lately, way more so than in high school, but I've also fought back more on things I felt necessary for mood or flow. If I want it that way it stays that way, because I did it for a reason. If I wasn't too sure or actually ask, "what do you think?" then cool...

That said, I should be aware of the fact people in general don't want that - don't like that. People like simpler stuff ... and say even of Tolkien that he's too flowery and old-fashioned. Heck, already more than once I've seen the notion that even wanting to have proper grammar is "a classist notion".
(although it's true that even fantasy fans - i. e. fans of genre literature - tend to like Tad Williams or even Pat Rothfuss, who definitely go against the flow in that regard)

So I guess it's a bit about balance - both bridling the worst excesses and idiosyncrasies and being prepared for accusations of elitism, classism, puerility or pretentiousness, consoling myself with the notion of being an artist of unquestionable integrity or a weirdo – maybe a bit of both.

But that's not necessarily a second language thing for me, like I said, I'm like that in my native tongue also.

Well, there's simple and then there's just plain bad. Simple isn't necessarily bad. I'm a huge Michael Crichton fan, he definitely wrote "simple," but for the most part his stories were pretty good. Same with Dennis Lehane, author of Gone Baby Gone and Mystic River. Finding Well written works post 20th century lit is hard. I've only read two books in the past 15 years that weren't "classic lit," that I found a pleasure to read just from the structure, grammar, vocabulary, etc. Never mind the style and flow and story.... those were The Town by Chuck Hogan (GREAT novel, SHIT movie), and The Postman by David Brin. On the opposite side of the spectrum, The first Halo books, the ones by Eric Nylund. OMG, they are HORRIBLY written, but they are SO GOOD lol. I mean, if you like the games anyway. The spelling and grammar mistakes are too many to count, but I was glued to the book, because the story was sooo good.

So that said, write it, share it and at least I'll tell you what I think, can't speak for the rest of the board of course. I've shared a few things on the now writing thread with little to no feedback (I'll take it as a good thing), but why not?
 
In lithuanian we have a joke:
"Kodėl šita mėlynė yra raudona? Todėl, kad žalia"

Why is this blueberry red? Because it's green (not ripe yet).

After some google research:

"What color are blueberries? Correct answer: dark red.
It may sound wrong, but red is the primary pigment color found in the fruit’s skin; it only appears dark blue to our eyes.
How exactly? That’s what researchers at the University of Bristol wanted to find out.
After closely studying the skin of the fruit, the researchers observed that its blue color is instead created by a layer of surface wax made up of miniature structures that scatter blue and ultraviolet (UV) light."


Damn those scientists, they ruin everything!

And our "mėlynė" (blueberry) is exactly the same word for "bruise" (mėlynė, sumušimas)

- Oh, I see you have blueberry beneath your eye..
- That's Forrest's fault!
1732615383058.jpeg
100 level joke here somewhere.
 
Back
Top