ISIS Thread

At which point Jesus will show up and spear Dajjal. So they want to have a Pyrrhic victory against "Rome". And they don't care what happens in the meantime because only a handful are going to live that far.

My mind is blown.
 
At which point Jesus will show up and spear Dajjal. So they want to have a Pyrrhic victory against "Rome". And they don't care what happens in the meantime because only a handful are going to live that far.

But Dajjal is not Roman. He is Khorassani. That's the region around Mashhad in eastern Iran. No clue why they picked that area.
 
In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.
Yes, I had something like that in mind.

I think that this is a somewhat controversial (and offending) thing to say:
The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.
Fundamentalist interpretations. Extreme ideological interpretation. 7th century interpretation. These terms would suit better, wouldn't they? Islamic people all over the world do not need to hear that IS is very islamic. Islam has good sides as well, hasn't it?

But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.
So how would understand this theology help with combatting it?

Later, this part is (somewhat) contradicted by this:
Western officials would probably do best to refrain from weighing in on matters of Islamic theological debate altogether.


Understanding fascism in WWII clearly did not help. It had to be combatted. I am NOT intending to Godwin this discussion. I merely see a parallel.
IS has a "be with us and be like us, or die" ideology that we know all too well from what happened in WWII. Combatting it was the solution, or at least it contributed to it.

Control of territory is an essential precondition for the Islamic State’s authority in the eyes of its supporters. This map, adapted from the work of the Institute for the Study of War, shows the territory under the caliphate’s control as of January 15, along with areas it has attacked. Where it holds power, the state collects taxes, regulates prices, operates courts, and administers services ranging from health care and education to telecommunications.
Water is wet and snow is white.
Exempted from automatic execution, it appears, are Christians who do not resist their new government. Baghdadi permits them to live, as long as they pay a special tax, known as the jizya, and acknowledge their subjugation. The Koranic authority for this practice is not in dispute.
Automatic or not, we've recently witnessed executions, in Libya. That matters. That rouses emotion against IS. Which should also not be underestimated.
Centuries have passed since the wars of religion ceased in Europe, and since men stopped dying in large numbers because of arcane theological disputes. Hence, perhaps, the incredulity and denial with which Westerners have greeted news of the theology and practices of the Islamic State. Many refuse to believe that this group is as devout as it claims to be, or as backward-looking or apocalyptic as its actions and statements suggest.
I don't see truth in this statement. There is no denial. People understand the danger. By now at least. The problem is that not everybody knows how to deal with it. And that's a difference.

One of the major points of this article seems to me that the writer wants to say: IS is (very) religious, not (just) an ideology.
Even if that is the case, so what? The writer does not address the importance of this knowledge (I might have missed this, please correct me if I have). Later, at the end, he stresses the ideology-aspect again.

Especially interesting to me was "IV. The Fight". It pointed out various possibilities. Not a clear way of knowing what to do with it or about it.
Doing nothing and waiting til it dies, I doubt if that really is going to happen.

"Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”
Yes, we know that.

It was an interesting article. E.g. I have learnt more about how several mistakes were made. Things should have been done such as:
If we had identified the Islamic State’s intentions early, and realized that the vacuum in Syria and Iraq would give it ample space to carry them out, we might, at a minimum, have pushed Iraq to harden its border with Syria and preemptively make deals with its Sunnis.
But isn't this a what if scenario? And perhaps not more than a short term solution? Could Iraq really have hardened its borders? Without Western boots on the ground?

In the end we get a summary of the whole problem, which is -in essence- not really that revealing:

Fascism, Orwell continued, is

psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life … Whereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people “I offer you a good time,” Hitler has said to them, “I offer you struggle, danger, and death,” and as a result a whole nation flings itself at his feet … We ought not to underrate its emotional appeal.


Nor, in the case of the Islamic State, its religious or intellectual appeal. That the Islamic State holds the imminent fulfillment of prophecy as a matter of dogma at least tells us the mettle of our opponent. It is ready to cheer its own near-obliteration, and to remain confident, even when surrounded, that it will receive divine succor if it stays true to the Prophetic model. Ideological tools may convince some potential converts that the group’s message is false, and military tools can limit its horrors. But for an organization as impervious to persuasion as the Islamic State, few measures short of these will matter, and the war may be a long one, even if it doesn’t last until the end of time.
Yes, very true. In the end, the writer agrees with me: The war will happen, if it hasn't already, and it is a logical reaction (he doesn't say that, but he speaks about "the war" as if he means it's against a totalitarian ideology, as if he accepts it as a logical fact.
 
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Fundamentalist interpretations. Extreme ideological interpretation. 7th century interpretation. These terms would suit better, wouldn't they? Islamic people all over the world do not need to hear that IS is very islamic. Islam has good sides as well, hasn't it?

Everything has good sides. I do not consider Islam an enemy - just as I don't consider Christianity an enemy. But I do consider ISIS's version of Islam to be counter to many things I hold dear - just as I think about fundamentalist Christianity. And fundamentalist Christians are neither more nor less Christians than a Catholic who uses birth control, just as IS is neither more nor less Islamic than a modern Muslim who obeys only a handful of the restrictive beliefs of others. To deny that Islam is at the core of IS is the same as denying that Christianity was at the core of the Crusades. It's not insulting because it's true - and it creates the framework by which we can understand IS and what they want. Which explains, in turn, why they do what they do.

Literally the IS playbook is the Quran. Word for fucking word.

Understanding fascism in WWII clearly did not help. It had to be combatted. I am NOT intending to Godwin this discussion. I merely see a parallel.
IS has a "be with us and be like us, or die" ideology that we know all too well from what happened in WWII. Combatting it was the solution, or at least it contributed to it.
Understanding fascism was devastatingly important to how we waged the Second World War. The Allied Powers sought a total war over Germany and Italy and Japan understanding that their fascist and imperialist ideologies were part of the combined populace. We chose to rain fire on German cities because we understood fascism. We chose to rain atomic fire on Japan because we understood their version of imperialism. I am not suggesting those were morally correct decisions, but I am saying that they were ones made at the time with the framework of the current understanding of the opposition.

Understanding the IS today will teach us HOW to combat IS appropriately. It will let us pick the right methodology by which to combat them. It tells us that sending in an army is exactly what they want. It tells us that they will die happily as martyrs against that army. And, most importantly, it tells us that IS will never, ever, release a hostage alive intentionally.

Automatic or not, we've recently witnessed executions, in Libya. That matters. That rouses emotion against IS. Which should also not be underestimated.

Understanding the IS tells us this is their desire. They want an emotional "Rome" to come into battle so they can sacrifice against them, and then Jesus will show up and kill the leader. They want us to lose our temper and send in an army. The key is to keep calm.

Yes, very true. In the end, the writer agrees with me: The war will happen, if it hasn't already, and it is a logical reaction (he doesn't say that, but he speaks about "the war" as if he means it's against a totalitarian ideology, as if he accepts it as a logical fact.

What do you mean by "the war"? Do you mean a war against ISIS? Do you mean a Western ground war? Do you mean an Arabic ground war?
 
So how would understand this theology help with combatting it?

This list is decidedly non-exhaustive:
  • If you understand the appeal it has to its followers, you are better equipped to prevent others from following it.
  • If you understand its internal mechanisms, you know what they do to make their people fight.
  • If you understand what it promises to the people who fight for it, you will know how far their fighters will go.
  • If you understand what its goals are, you know what to defend.
  • If you know what means they consider valid to reach their ends, you know what to prepare for when they fight.
  • If you understand its logic, you will know what effect your actions will have.
If you want to remove a tumor, you don't just cut somebody's body open and rip it out.
 
Water is wet and snow is white.

The statement you're answering to here is not as stupid and obvious as you think. The thing with the Islamic State, and that is what makes it the most scary, is that it indeed has established governmental structures. It tries to come across as benevolent to its people by introducing things like social security, food quality control and municipality services. Why is this worth pointing out? Because it sets it apart from terrorist groups like al Qaeda. It is establishing a give and take relationship with people it considers its citizens. Thus, the people who potentially identify with it and pledge allegiance aren't just jihadist fighters, but ordinary people who make a normal living in a community established by the Islamic State. If somebody from outside comes and just bombs this stuff to oblivion telling them they're liberated, they won't feel that way. Are the street sweepers, kebab vendors, mothers applying for pregnancy benefits and daycare educators in this Islamic State all terrorists?
 
IS establishes this relationship after it has conquered and theatened. And that I find morally wrong. If people live under these circumstances, they were forced to, and it could be a life under fear.

That doesn't mean that these societies should be bombed blindly (not all of them are terrorists indeed). I wish soldiers carrying weapons could be intercepted before they reach for a new city (or other territory).

I wish I had more time to go into your other post and LC's. Hopefully later, but I can't promise when/which day. (busy times :/ )
 
IS establishes this relationship after it has conquered and theatened. And that I find morally wrong. If people live under these circumstances, they were forced to, and it could be a life under fear.
These people are used to be conquered and threatened. Seriously, over the last 100 years, how many times has Iraq and Syria been conquered? Including multiple times by western forces. After awhile, you just accept that the next wave of invaders is coming through and you try to live your life under them.
 
IS establishes this relationship after it has conquered and theatened. And that I find morally wrong. If people live under these circumstances, they were forced to, and it could be a life under fear.

That doesn't mean that these societies should be bombed blindly (not all of them are terrorists indeed). I wish soldiers carrying weapons could be intercepted before they reach for a new city (or other territory).

Nobody is denying that IS needs to be fought and defeated. But it's useless if you go there in panic because it's so bad, oust IS and have something worse returning after a few years. If you want peace permanently, you had better well plan it properly. It's not going to work otherwise.

And as LC said, foreign occupation, especially from western countries, is a terrible idea.
 
These people are used to be conquered and threatened. Seriously, over the last 100 years, how many times has Iraq and Syria been conquered? Including multiple times by western forces. After awhile, you just accept that the next wave of invaders is coming through and you try to live your life under them.
But the current invaders need to be fought and defeated. Because it is a better idea than IS occupation.
 
These people are used to be conquered and threatened. Seriously, over the last 100 years, how many times has Iraq and Syria been conquered? Including multiple times by western forces. After awhile, you just accept that the next wave of invaders is coming through and you try to live your life under them.

That shouldn't be used as an excuse. A hostile takeover is still a hostile takeover, no matter when or how often it occurs.

However, I agree that it's not worth risking fighting fire with fire in this case. It's exactly what IS wants; to get Western forces involved to encourage more terrorist activity in those nations.
 
Let's see what we agree about then. Do we all agree with this?
Nobody is denying that IS needs to be fought and defeated.
If yes, how should it be fought and defeated?
What do you mean by "the war"? Do you mean a war against ISIS? Do you mean a Western ground war? Do you mean an Arabic ground war?
That's the major question. I am not sure yet, which one is best, but I am sure that the author in the article writes about a war. I didn't see that as an unimportant conclusion.
 
The author in the article has a number of sound suggestions to which I have nothing to add.
 
I didn't find them sound.

EDIT:
  • If you understand the appeal it has to its followers, you are better equipped to prevent others from following it.
  • If you understand its internal mechanisms, you know what they do to make their people fight.
  • If you understand what it promises to the people who fight for it, you will know how far their fighters will go.
  • If you understand what its goals are, you know what to defend.
  • If you know what means they consider valid to reach their ends, you know what to prepare for when they fight.
  • If you understand its logic, you will know what effect your actions will have.
Which equipment can we truly grasp and use to prevent others?
How can you stop these mechanisms, because that's the only way. Understanding them, does not make them stop.
We already know how far they go. Far.
We know goals (they are in the article, not?), and we have seen moves, so we have seen some results.
Same
But you don't know which actions will have a good effect. And that's is something I miss in this discussion.
 
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Yeah. You know, this discussion is running in circles. I've said everything I have to say about this issue somewhere in this thread, and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you're not convinced by my points after all this, then I will never be able to convince you.
 
Don't run away that fast. I am going deeper into it. You refuse to think further.

And realize: you do not have to convince me, but can at least have the decency to explain your points better, or respect people who don't find this good enough.*

EDIT:
*Never mind this last part, that's not that important.
 
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