Is bearing children an inherit human right?

But the purpose of prison is to begin rehabilitation.  Sometimes it takes years on the "outside" for someone to fully come around.  It's rather not fair to give one chance to people, and then if they can't pass an arbitrary test, that's it, done.

Certainly, the rights of the child once born must be considered, and if the house is bad, get the kid out.  But once someone has served their time, you have to give them a chance to prove they're rehabilitated.  A test in prison isn't going to cut the mustard.
 
Natalie said:
Also, like Perun said, if we want the human species to continue then we need to have people who bear children. Simple as that. 

I had to react to this post, hopefully it won't cause another storm, I promise I'll be careful.

Natalie, this reasoning might imply that you are against abortion? If you are for abortion, that would be a contradiction with the stuff I just quoted, or not?

Let me tell you "it" is not that simple for everyone. The world isn't that black and white. Not everyone is forced to have anti-conception, neither is everyone forced to have children, however, however:

In Poland priests go every year to all citizens to pay visits. To ask when people will get children or why people are not taking childen. The aunt of my wife can't have children and for years the priests kept coming back, telling their painful stories (e.g. "I guess you had some abortions in the past, huh?"). In the end she decided to not let them in anymore. She'd probably cringe to read a comparable story on this forum (not so hard but with the same goal). As I said before, the church spreads these words, and people who rather not see alternatives. In Poland the church also teaches that married people should have children and if one of them cannot have children (or both) they should divorce, and try with someone else.

We want the human species to continue (not everyone by the way: quite some people think we are with enough, or even with too many) but you can't ask it from someone who cannot have a child (e.g. aunt of my wife) and imo you can also not ask it from someone who can't take care of a child.

The idea that the human race will be endangered when a few people can't have children (for whatever reason) is not realistic. There are many, many other people who can have children. And the human race will continue to grow for quite some time.
 
*sigh*

I don't know why abortion is coming into this, but I will try to clarify what I was trying to say earlier. I don't mean that the species must continue at all costs and people should have children if physically possible. It's a basic human instinct (or animal instinct) to propagate in order that the species might survive. Sometimes the wiring gets a little tangled/ the environment sets different criteria, but the reason gay people still have sex drives is because as a species we want to have sex (so that the species will continue, but we don't think about that on a conscious level). Anyway, what I meant was that from a biological point of reference, humans want to reproduce and this is logical because its a matter of species survival. And my statement was just a reaffirmal of what Perun said earlier, which is that if we want the human species to survive, people must reproduce. This is a fact statement not a subjective statement. I went nowhere near whether or not we should stop reproducing (I don't really think we can ever totally stop but anyway) and I'm not sure where abortion came into play. I  was not advocating pro-life stuff, I was not advocating that all who can, REPRODUCE NOW. The wording may have been misleading, and I apologize. Essentially I was just doing a fact statement in order to reinforce the idea that bearing children is an inherent unalienable right.

And in answer to the sort of unrelated abortion issue, I'm pro-choice in the sense that women should have the choice. But I do think that it should be with VERY GOOD REASON (not the whimsical, I don't feel like it).
 
Natalie said:
if we want the human species to survive, people must reproduce

This can not be an argument against this plan, because we have enough (other) people who reproduce.
If this new plan will become reality, the human species will still survive: especially when you think abortions take place for quite some years in much bigger numbers. This is a fact statement not a subjective statement.
 
Alright, I just think it touches Natalie's argument (survival of the human species) more than this plan does.

But no prob, I'll change it:

Natalie said:
if we want the human species to survive, people must reproduce

This can not be an argument against this plan, because we have enough (other) people who reproduce.
If this new plan will become reality, it won't influence the human species survival.
 
I'm not saying the human species won't survive if this plan goes into action because obviously there are more than enough other people to do the job. I was just pointing it out in order to flesh out my other arguments against the plan. If it makes you happier and stops the misundertandings, I can take it out of the original post, because I realize it is a little confusing.
 
No, no one has the "freedom" to abuse. "My freedom ends where the next person's starts..." Period.
 
Forostar said:
So does beating up children, killing children and placing children out of their houses.

That's why we have laws that punish parents when they do that.
 
Perun said:
That's why we have laws that punish parents when they do that.

Another recent article.

A quote that seems to summarize our differences of opinion:

"It cannot be right for inadequate mothers to go on giving birth to babies who are destined to be damaged and to inflict damage on others. Equally, it seems wrong to think of interfering with a woman’s freedom to have a baby. So we are left with the question of which evil is greater – interference with the mother’s freedom or the damage to her child and to society."

Complete article (in case people want to quote):
---------

The case for forcing birth control on unfit mothers
by Minette Marrin

The Dutch are odd. They seem so moderate, so practical, so sensible - a nation of considerate egalitarian cyclists – yet they take their virtues to extremes. They pursue common sense to a fault. For instance, there are plenty of arguments in favour of mercy killing, yet few nations feel quite able to make it legal. The Dutch did, with enthusiasm, long ago. The same is true of legalising cannabis and prostitution.

Another example of this tendency emerged last week. Reports hit the blogosphere that a Dutch socialist politician, Marjo Van Dijken of the PvDA party (the social democratic Labour party), is putting a draft bill before the Dutch parliament recommending that unfit mothers should be forced by law into two years of contraception. Any babies wilfully conceived in that period should be confiscated at birth. Unfit mothers would mean those who have already been in serious trouble because of their bad parenting.

There is, I suppose, a grain of common sense behind all that, but Van Dijken has taken it to what seem like scary extremes. One imagines Dutch do-gooders on bikes, descending on all the imperfect mothers of Holland and bearing away their babies in countless bicycle baskets, like totalitarian ex-post facto storks.

In person Van Dijken sounds less alarming. She explains that the professionals who come into contact with families in difficulties all say the same thing. They see the same problems repeated again and again in certain families. It’s obvious from when social workers are forced to take the first child into care that it won’t be the last.

Dijken’s idea is to try to prevent a new pregnancy in a family whose existing children are already in care until the situation has improved enough for them to be able to come back home. Two years might be a suitable period. If, after the suggested two years of compulsory contraception, the family is still not safe for children, the contraception order could be extended by a judge’s review. “If there’s a better way, a less invasive way, I will never mention my proposals again,” she says.

If hers is not the answer to the problem, the question remains: what should be done about unfit parents? Children are increasingly being damaged by them. At the extremes, chaotic mothers who are prostitutes or addicts or mentally ill or just what my own mother called inadequate are condemning their children to the same miserable and disordered lives. Man hands on misery to man, as Philip Larkin wrote, and so does woman.

Less extremely, many children are also being damaged by parents who are not so obviously unfit, but still bad enough to do serious harm. On Friday questions by Michael Gove, the shadow education secretary, revealed that more than 4,000 children aged five or under were suspended from school in Britain because of their troubled and violent behaviour. Of the 400 suspensions of children aged just two and three, 310 involved physical assault and threatening behaviour. Numbers of exclusion in all groups under 11 are increasing, mostly because of uncontrolled or violent behaviour.

According to Mick Brookes, general secretary of the National Association of Head Teachers, nursery and primary schools are seeing more parents who have simply lost control: “It’s down to poor parenting.” Very bad behaviour at school at an early age is just the tip of a disastrous iceberg; hidden under the surface lies a future of illiteracy, unemployment, crime, broken relationships and unhappiness.

Even before children of unfit parents get to schools, their destiny is blighted. Increasingly scientists are beginning to understand that neglect retards cognitive development or impairs it – as with the extreme cases of children in Romanian orphanages, who have never recovered from the personal and sensory deprivation they suffered. Language skills and social skills not learnt in infancy may never be learnt; trauma will be hard-wired into the brain.

In plain English, an infant whose mother never reads or plays with him or her, who is constantly uncertain what will happen next and whether he or she will eat, or whether the mother will be enraged or demanding or high, is a child with a permanently damaged future. The cost of bad parents to such an individual is terrible, but it is also very high to the rest of society.

Given all that, it cannot be right for inadequate mothers to go on giving birth to babies who are destined to be damaged and to inflict damage on others. Equally, it seems wrong to think of interfering with a woman’s freedom to have a baby. So we are left with the question of which evil is greater – interference with the mother’s freedom or the damage to her child and to society.

As John Stuart Mill said: “To bring a child into existence without a fair prospect of being able, not only to provide food for its body, but instruction and training for its mind, is a moral crime, both against the unfortunate offspring and against society.” A moral crime, I agree. But Mill goes on to say that “if the parent does not fulfil this obligation, the state ought to see it fulfilled, at the charge, as far as possible, of the parent”.

Taxing unfit parents, rather than temporarily sterilising unfit mothers, might seem more acceptable. But there are several glaring problems with this solution, too. Such parents won’t have any money to tax. And besides, the most unfit parent of all is the state; in this country its nurslings are condemned to exceptionally high rates of illiteracy, poverty, crime and mental illness.

On Mill’s argument, the state here ought to be taxed for the disastrous treatment of its “looked-after” children. A simpler way to reduce the number of damaged children would be to give parents incentives not to have more than two children; after two, benefits would be withdrawn and larger housing could be withheld.

It seems to me unfair to deny people any children at all. But it might be right to reduce the number to two. That would be fairer to taxpayers than expecting them to support families larger than their own and it might persuade genuinely unfit mothers that it is not in their interests to keep producing babies; they will be better off without.

It is time that, like Van Dijken, we started asking these extreme questions.
 
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