Suicidehummer
Trooper
You're not seriously comparing the name "Iron Maiden" to "Helloween", are you? 
How good are Iron Maiden (individually)?
- Thread starter Gosheto
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Cap Maronis
Trooper
Suicidehummer said:You're not seriously comparing the name "Iron Maiden" to "Helloween", are you?
Of course not, but you know there's always going to be a tad of macabre silliness when it comes to metal music. I think one needs to look at any performer with that in mind, so a name like theirs is really par for the course when it comes to metal names. Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of Helloween, Kiske's voice drives me nuts, and Deris did nothing for me really.
Suicidehummer
Trooper
Sure, in the music, in small doses. But if they aren't going to take the naming of their band seriously, I can't take them seriously as musicians. I'm not going to listen to a band called Dick Vomit because I know just from their name that they aren't going to write a masterpiece like ROTAM. And I know they're most likely death metal which is total crap. 
It's like Bruce said in the Abbey Road interview, "If your opinion of yourself and what you do is that 'Oh, it's a bit of a joke really, isn't it?'... if you wanna do that, just, you know, go and do it somewhere else.... What we do here, to us, is really important."
It's like Bruce said in the Abbey Road interview, "If your opinion of yourself and what you do is that 'Oh, it's a bit of a joke really, isn't it?'... if you wanna do that, just, you know, go and do it somewhere else.... What we do here, to us, is really important."
Cap Maronis
Trooper
I suppose. I guess comical isn't exactly right either, theatrical is probably more appropriate. Like an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, theatrical and even perhaps over the top, but it makes it no less art.
And as far as Death Metal goes, like any genre or subgenre in metal, a majority of it IS garbage, but just like everything in life, I think it's a bit misguided to write everything off just because Cannibal Corpse or the others of their ilk exist. But I can understand personal taste, I know that pop for the last 15 years or so drives me crazy.
And as far as Death Metal goes, like any genre or subgenre in metal, a majority of it IS garbage, but just like everything in life, I think it's a bit misguided to write everything off just because Cannibal Corpse or the others of their ilk exist. But I can understand personal taste, I know that pop for the last 15 years or so drives me crazy.
pilau
Nomad
Zare said:
Well Zare, I am a drummer and I am looking at it from a drummer's point of view. I am not saying in any way that Nicko's mediocre or average. On the contrary, I actually praised his style and his ability to surprise me each and every time I pay close attention to the drums on any Iron Maiden songs. But if you take a look at his solos - tell you the truth - they're nothing special. He's a great drummer in that he knows how to drum; he knows how to control and maintain a drumset and tweak it to create his own style; he knows how to incorporate his own 'thing' into the beats he plays; he has great agility and shape as a drummer, especially one of his age.
Maybe my statement about 4/4 beats was wrong or out of place. Of course, Maiden plays a lot of different time signatures. So forget about it - I completely take it back. But still - comparing to Terry Bozzio or Gavin Harrison or Weckl I have to say he's second to them. (and to them only!).
I agree with you so much! I just hate it when performing artists, especially when it comes to metal musicians are all focused into themselves when they're onstage! It drives me nuts! I mean - you're on stage! Loosen up, dammit.Forostar said:
This is where Maiden stand out amongst any other performing artist. I seriously can't think of any kind of a show that can compete with an Iron Maiden live show from my point of view. But, well, I'm totally biased.
I know nothing about drumming, but it always seems to me that Maiden has three lead guitarists and an epic rhythm section. You rarely hear drum solos or bass solos from Nick and Steve. They're out there, but you hear them more with other bands.
Jeffmetal
Ancient Mariner
Bottom line for me is: it's much harder to achieve what Maiden, Sabbath, Rush, Voivod, Metallica, Megadeth, Carcass, Zeppelin and countless other giants of music achieved as a collcetive mind with all these brlliant instrumentists and musicians sharing the same ideals and having to limit each other for the sake of the whole (ego is a big void that can sucks everything into it) than the one that uses his name, his own image and focus exclusively on his specific instrument. It's the shotest cut to self indulgence and that's why I find annoying most of these kind of artists. One that achieved that in a much more collective mind and in fantastic form, even using his name on the album cover is Carlos Santana. He blows most of these guitarrists that people cited in this thread who use their own names on the album cover.
Twarkle
Nomad
Jeffmetal said:
I agree with what you are saying here completely. More magic comes out of a group of musicians writing and connecting on the same wavelength. Being surrounded by other musicians in a band who are challenging each other creatively and working to towards the same goal, and are shaping the music as a whole is what creates special albums. Being able to do give yourself over to, and do what's best for the song and letting go of the desire to stand out as an individual within the band is a key element to great songs, and one that a lot of musicians never learn.
At the same time do you ever enjoy players who are intentionally being self indulgent? I think there is a place for that too. There are times when some really great stuff comes out of that as well, especially when it's a whole group of amazing musicians experimenting, and just kind of going for it. Yeah, a lot of times it's just too much and becomes unlistenable, but sometimes it's amazing. It's probably not the best example because the concept of the genre is so different from what we are discussing, but I love Coltrane and Davis, and their bands were amazing (Tony Williams is one of my favorite drummers) and a lot of that material, especially the live material is pretty self indulgent, but it still creates a lot of amazing music. Same thing with Zappa.
Jeff, just out of curiosity, what are thoughts on The Beatles?
____no5
Free Man
Jeffmetal said:
That's a brilliant point Jeff. Yet technically Santana is a band.
I would like to mention Fleetwood Mac as well, a name that consists of two band names but the huge one remained hidden :
Peter Green, one of the biggest guitar heroes the world has known.
I think Fleetwood Mac qualify in the same category as Santana does in a way, very collective group under musicians' names.
Jeffmetal
Ancient Mariner
Yeah, Twarkle, now you got my point about music as a whole. The self indulgent guitarrists might very well be amazing, like Zappa which for me is the biggest example of putting together theatre, cinema, comedy and music in a pack of uniqueness with so many fantastic instrumentists, musicians and performers. His first albums has some amazingly funny, insane and vanguard incursions that'll be always relevant. Then on Hot Rats, he started to get more focused (by his patterns! Ahahahahahahah...) and it became even more fantastic. I understand perfectly the comparison with Coltrane and Davis, but the big difference is that jazz players who lead their bands like both just mentioned comes from a different background and attitude; of course egocentric people are in all areas of life, but guitarrists like to show it off much more due to the nature of the instrument and the distorted sound it produces which has a greater appeal than Jazz. But the main factor is that Davis and Coltrane, specially the former, was a musical director and he was fine tuning his creation, so he stayed kinda on the background, but knew every bit of his work and always let his musicians shine as much as himself, which is something really rare among guitarrists who leads their bands.
Will-I-Am, Fleetwood Mac used to be an amazingly mind blowing band! Peter Green is a genius, loads don't know but Judas Priest's The Green Manalishi (With The Two-Pronged Crown) and Santana's Black Magic Woman are Fleetwood Mac's Peter Green composed cover versions. There's one Fleetwood Mac song which blows my mind which is called Dragonfly! Man, that gives me creeps on the skin!
Well, I think The Beatles is a magic band: perfect arrangements, hooks and more hooks, anthologic songs, lyrics and melodies. I'm actually still discovering for good the music they composed and it's the kind of band that teaches a lot; taking the hook, although The Rolling Stones are a complete different beast from Beatles, although sharing the same influences, they are great, too. The dangerous issue about these bands are their greatest hits and overplayed songs as there's much more than meets the eye, not counting their extense discography, so there's really a lot to discover.
Will-I-Am, Fleetwood Mac used to be an amazingly mind blowing band! Peter Green is a genius, loads don't know but Judas Priest's The Green Manalishi (With The Two-Pronged Crown) and Santana's Black Magic Woman are Fleetwood Mac's Peter Green composed cover versions. There's one Fleetwood Mac song which blows my mind which is called Dragonfly! Man, that gives me creeps on the skin!
Well, I think The Beatles is a magic band: perfect arrangements, hooks and more hooks, anthologic songs, lyrics and melodies. I'm actually still discovering for good the music they composed and it's the kind of band that teaches a lot; taking the hook, although The Rolling Stones are a complete different beast from Beatles, although sharing the same influences, they are great, too. The dangerous issue about these bands are their greatest hits and overplayed songs as there's much more than meets the eye, not counting their extense discography, so there's really a lot to discover.
Twarkle
Nomad
Jeffmetal said:
You know what's funny Jeff? In regards to Dream Theater of whom I am a giant fan. I made a comment a few weeks ago on the Ernie Ball Music Man forums that got me attacked and you'd appreciate this. I said I had just seen the Rush documentary "Beyond The Lighted Stage", and at one point in the interviews Lifeson or Peart (I can't remember) says that after Hemispheres they made a conscious decision to put an end to the long, intricate songs. They felt like that had done it, satisfied themselves and could move on. I said that I thought DT had reached a point where they needed to make a similar change. The DT fans over there absolutely lost it. They acted like I had personally offended them.
Jeff do you dig Guthrie Govan? To me that guy is an instrumentalist who is doing so much more than just being self indulgent while still having mind blowing technique. I feel the same way about Shawn Lane, who was just an all around monster musician.
Jeffmetal
Ancient Mariner
I talked exactly this to a friend. I don't like DT, but if they's sit down and anazlyze a bit, they could see that their music is becoming more of the same for a looooooooooooong, loooooooong time. They have all the capabilities to make fucking amazing records, but they need to condense their ideas and make more focused song. You take Hemispheres and it's a gargantuan piece of music, but it has focus and when you read the lyrics, you just get transported into another dimension; DT force themselves to do it when they are influenced by it, heavily, but they can't hit the right hand or the right recipe for it.
I don't know 'em, but I'll surely check 'em out. One great recent guitarrist - jazz guitarrist, actually - that I really dig is John Pizzarelli.
I don't know 'em, but I'll surely check 'em out. One great recent guitarrist - jazz guitarrist, actually - that I really dig is John Pizzarelli.
____no5
Free Man
Jeffmetal said:
Dragonfly is Danny Kirwan (Green was on the dark side of the moon already),
a very young guitarist that came to Mac when Green was still there, we had almost as beautiful tone as Mighty Peter,
but unfortunately disappeared just like Green -not get mad as Peter did though
I'm trying to check in you tube an enormous live performance of Kirwan, I'll post it in Now Playing thread when I'll find it.*
Meanwhile check this Green's pre-Fleetwood mac giant that cemented his legend : 1967 : He was only 20 years old -check out the maturity of his tone.
Don't you recall Santana when you hear that tone maybe ??
I give it to you with all my heart, ENJOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWFFqffopb8
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* found it ! check it here --> http://forum.maidenfans.com/http://foru ... 96#p262696
Suicidehummer
Trooper
TO be honest, I think the Rhythm section is Maiden's worst aspect. It's a band of very talented guys, but they're all best suited to the lead position, not rhythm. Except maybe Nicko.
Twarkle
Nomad
Jeffmetal said:
Definitely check them out, I think you'll really dig them.
DT has two issues these days that I think may contribute to some of what you don't like about them. They come into the studio with nothing and write and arrange as a group once they are there. I think that can lead to to many ideas getting jammed together. The second is that Portnoy and Petrucci have been the producers for the last 11 years, so they have no one to tell them when to stop and challenge them in different ways. I still really dig a lot of what they are doing, but I understand your issues. Have you heard their "Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory" album? I think you would find more material on that that you would like.
Twarkle
Nomad
To me Maiden's rhythm section is so different from any other, not just in metal. Because the backbone of it has two players in McBrain and Harris who have such unique styles and sounds it ends up with a very different feel than anyone else. They don't have a traditional pocket, and there's not a lot of space or breathing room, but if there was it wouldn't sound like Maiden. They manage to compliment each others playing, which I think must be really tough to do given that they are both pretty busy players. They never get in each others way despite the density of notes being played.
Jeffmetal
Ancient Mariner
Exactly and also, Maiden has a lot unusual rhythms. The Clairvoyant rhythm has to be tightly played 'cos it's odd and if you never ever heard of a brasilian rhythm called Baião, check it out 'cos it's lot like The Clairvoyant and other Maiden songs that has this rhythm, such as Judgement Of Heaven and FTGGOG.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Twarkle said:
Cheers! A fellow jazz fan, if I may call you that. There's a jazz topic floating around somewhere on the general forum. Hope to discuss with you there in the future!
I have quite some John Coltrane records, and a hell of a lot of other jazz artists as well.
Elvin Jones is my favourite drummer. Basically because of his energy and the polyrhythms he was famous for. But Williams too, and Max Roach, Art Blakey, Philly Joe Jones. I also dig Pete La Roca, Joe Chambers, the list goes on and on...
Suicidehummer said:
Don't judge a band on a name. Helloween is a band with good musicians. Like it or not. Especially their bass player and they've always had excellent lead guitarists (Not per se Weikath, but the other guys: Kai Hansen, Roland Grapow (who was a fabulous riff master as well), and now Sascha Gerstner).