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Holy Smoke

Discussion in 'No Prayer For The Dying' started by Anonymous, Mar 5, 2004.

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How good is Holy Smoke on a scale of 1-10?

  1. 10

    5.7%
  2. 9

    8.6%
  3. 8

    25.7%
  4. 7

    28.6%
  5. 6

    14.3%
  6. 5

    8.6%
  7. 4

    5.7%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    2.9%
  1. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    This is what I do as well (I think!), and seems most logical. I see it like this:
    1, 2 or 3 are grades meant for songs I despise, from start to finish. People who give such grades can say they do despise these songs, that's fine.

    I feel lucky I have never had that horrible feeling with my favourite band, representing my favourite music style and responsible for my favourite discography.
     
  2. Dr. Eddies Wingman

    Dr. Eddies Wingman Brighter than thousand_suns

    For me, it's more like this:

    1-2 True rubbish, music which feels like an insult to my ears and is simply annoying.
    3. Music which is either plain boring or just doesn't click with me, but isn't annoying. A lot of generic radio music comes in this category.
    4. Songs that are decent at first listen, but grows old fast - and those which I will only give a listen now and then.
     
  3. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Looks like good categories, I see these as various degrees of "despicable".

    I'd say I agree with you, only I would make these additions:

    In category 3 I would not say "just doesn't click" because that can also happen in a song with a 4 or 5 (or even higher)

    I'd add in category 4: A song with such ranking still has "one or two better moments", so it is not boring or annoying from start to finish.
     
  4. Deano

    Deano Ancient Mariner

    I pretty much hate this song even though it delivers a "clever" message to evangelists of the time (so does Miracle Man, which pretty much sucks too). If the title track wasn't the very next song on this album I probably would have broken down crying after having listened to the first 2.

    3/10
     
  5. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

  6. Deano

    Deano Ancient Mariner

    Indeed they do, and unfortunately they probably always will.
     
  7. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Thus, I herald these lyrics. Maiden came out of the closet and had a first try at social topics. They showed they were aware of the negative sides of religion, and its impact on societies. This is historically not unimportant.

    If the topic of these lyrics is seen as irrelevant, then -in that same light- so are the later lyrics in later songs, which show awareness of negative sides of religion.
     
  8. Deano

    Deano Ancient Mariner

    I have no problem with the intent of the lyrics, it just makes me cringe at what the lyrics actually are. The boys should shy away from comedic attempts at all costs. Just my opinion, as I said Ozzy's lyrics in Miracle Man made me feel the same way. Too much school yard na-na-na-na-boo-boo.
     
  9. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    I get that.

    But my respond was meant as a reply to anyone who put the subject of the lyrics aside as hardly significant, so now it's time to defend the intent of the lyrics and show that they are still relevant.
     
  10. Deano

    Deano Ancient Mariner

    I'm with you there Foro; for those of us that were alive and old enough to appreciate the full meaning and implications of the "events" going on at the time, it was poetic justice to have the same lunatics that persecuted us taken down a few notches. These are definitely more evil men than what they tried to make our heroes out to be.
     
  11. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    I, for one, have never seen a programme with a TV preacher, so for me it is irrelevant. I also haven't heard anyone talk about a TV preacher in years. And I can't get worked up about the topic, because I think anyone who listens to a TV preacher and gives him money is stupid and the loss is his own fault. Maiden have had much better takes on religion that are more universal, because they target the more subtle seductiveness rather than the bland pop culture of it. So yeah, maybe it was a first try, but... well, no it wasn't. Maiden have tackled religion since Number of the Beast. Holy Smoke is more of a satire, and that is the problem with satires: They become outdated very quickly. Does anybody still know who Jimmy Reptile is? I had to look up on the Commentary, because apparently he was some bloke who was in public discussion in the time the album came out, but is completely forgotten now. I prefer lyrics that are timeless over ones that make references you won't get anymore 20 years on.

    Yeah, the intent is good, but as I said, they did it better before (Number of the Beast, Caught Somewhere in Time, the whole Seventh Son album) and after. But that's just my opinion.

    BTW, with regards to this thread, maybe I should point out that RealMaidenFan is from Iran, and things are very different there.
     
  12. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    I never discussed the form of the song, but the topic and the intention.

    Not in my living room, but I am aware of it.

    Would you elaborate on the earlier songs and their awareness of negative aspects of religion?
    Thanks a bunch.
     
  13. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    Foro, please don't get emotional just because I disagree with you.

    As did I...

    Read the lyrics... it's all there. Number of the Beast illustrates how a religious cult can affect someone's psyche and seduces him (but I feel drawn towards these chanting hordes, seem to mesmerise, can't avoid their eyes), Caught Somewhere in Time is just as much about seduction, and I personally see Seventh Son as an allegory on what preachiness about morality can do to someone.

    Again, and again, this is my opinion.
     
  14. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Well, I think I made strong arguments that the topic of these lyrics are still relevant. Deano responded to them, and even agreed. That does not automatically mean that you have to agree, but you leave these arguments out of your replies, so I can't see if you take my whole post in consideration. That bothered me a bit, but I am not offending anyone, am I?

    Opinions are opinions, but I have trouble with understanding how we can leave out the consequences of these TV priests when we talk about relevance of these lyrics, or when we say these lyrics are outdated.

    Thanks for your explanation on the older songs.
     
  15. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    I don't know, to me that is a reply to what you said from my perspective. I'm not saying others should see it the same way as I do, but that is saying why to me personally, the lyrics are irrelevant. Apparently, I can't emphasise enough that I'm talking about my own perspective here. Other people will have different perspectives on it. I don't like the song, and I don't like the lyrics because to me, they are a period piece of satire, not a timeless commentary on religion. But as I said: That's my take on it.

    Only that I'm not sure what you mean with the consequences. You pointed to this thread, and I stated why I don't think that it is a very good example:

    I also don't think this forum is exactly a microcosmos of the world around us.
     
  16. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    Cheers for coming back at that earlier quote of yours. I myself didn't take it well enough into consideration. New attempt: I think it's not only about losing money, it's about the words that harm the listener and others.

    Indoctrination (which TV priests did a great deal) affects not only adults, but also harms people who can't defend themselves well, e.g. because they are still young, or because they are a minority.

    Do you know anyone blinded by religion personally?

    I have a collegue, driven by literal interpretation of the bible, who raves a lot of nonsense. I don't have to pity him, but I pity those (me included! ;) ) who have to hear this nonsense.

    In Iran people have less freedom, if that's what you mean. But -if you want- you can see radical imams as the TV-priests of the 21st century. Perhaps their impact is much bigger, but in essence their message is not different.
    Live by the rules of the Lord, and condemn the others. Restriction, restriction, restriction.
     
  17. Perun

    Perun Climbing like a monkey Staff Member

    OK, that clears a few things up. But still, this just doesn't make the song better for me. I'm aware of the message, but Maiden have just made that point better in other songs. But that's just a point of disagreement on how to approach the song.

    That's my point- it's different. The preachers in Iran have actual, political power over people. If they say something, it is done by force. In the west, people have the choice if they want to obey or not. In Iran, they don't.
     
  18. Forostar

    Forostar Conjure the Death Star again

    I understand what you say. In Iran the separation between state and church is nihil.
     
  19. Vortex

    Vortex Invader

    Unfortunantly, I can sum this song up with one word: Rubbish. Along with one or two other tracks from this album. 2/10
     
  20. Taker

    Taker Cannon Fodder

    Dude... this band does not have anything in their entire catalogue that can be described as "rubbish". The weakest maiden tracks might be weak, but never "rubbish". Have a kick...
     

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