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My reaction to all of this Pantera rants and counter rants: :facepalm:

A ) Phil Anselmo is not a nazi. Period. His entire background and known friendships with people from other ethnic and politic backgrounds simply lay this claim to the ground. My personal take is that he's someone that does some seriously cringe and stupid stuff (not only political attitudes) many times when drunk/ high others sober. And yes, he used once or twice some "suspect" gear. But so did Jeff Haneman, Lemmy, Rob Halford, Schaffer, Iommi, Ian Astbury and Bill Duffy among many others.

B ) As for the confederate flag ... yeah. Even for non Americans like me we all know what it stood for during the civil war but (as it was said here) we also know later it became a symbol of the southern states' cultural heritage and many of the southern folks who still adopt it actually don't defend race supremacy. Furthermore it was largely merchandised later as a popular culture (rock music included) long before Pantera adopted it. It happens with various symbols: one of the most common ones is the German Iron Cross which is way more associated with fascism and racial supremacy than the confederate flag. In the last years it has began to regain the initial meaning it had. So symbols' meanings DO CHANGE with time (if not we would always relate swastikas to Hinduism and the imperial eagle to Romans).

C ) To bury all this symbols stuff... oh boy have I got a great example for you: SLAYER. A) imperial eagle in their symbol B ) SS helmet in their mascot C) name of the fanclub (Slaytanic Wehrmacht). Facts? Huge friends of folks from Cypress Hill and Ice T among people from many other ethnic branches and left wing bands (mainly punk/ crossover/ hardcore). Furthermore: the majority of assumed extreme right wing bands (namely in black metal or others like Morbid Angel) they normally don't wear out any political symbols.

Ariana said:
I stated earlier I had no problem with people not liking Pantera.
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So it all comes down to this and I must give it to Ariana: If you don't like Pantera it's perfectly FINE! But if you want to go with the narrative that X is this and Y is that because he wore or did Z at one point in life... oh man. Don't you people learn?
And since this is a Maiden board I'll leave you with the most blatant case regarding symbols, lyrics, gestures and imagery being deceitful in rock music: the whole thing around THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST. OOOOOOH Maiden... that ultra satanic band. Righhhhht.....
 
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CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Wiz, you're a huge Megadeth fan; do you endorse everything Dave utters? It doesn't matter to me, but it should matter to you.
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I definitely do not endorse the bullshit that Mustaine speaks but I don't think he uses anything like the kind of symbolism that Pantera did. There was a red "Make Metal Great Again" baseball cap a few years ago which Dave may have seen as a joke and was a bit concerning but I think Dave's views have been somewhat less visible. He has been quite vocal in several interviews about his wierd views and had a dumb anti-Obama rant onstage in Asia once where he suggested Obama had faked a school shooting for political gain. I think he then claimed he was joking afterwards, but didn't convince anyone.

Much like you with Pantera, I'd been listening to Megadeth for a few years before I'd become aware of his strange views and it's only more recently that I've realised how bat shit crazy he is. Thankfully he doesn't talk much on stage and I've never known of him making Nazi salutes and yelling "White Power!" on stage. At least not at any of the Megadave shows I've been to.

A key difference here is that Pantera very visibly used the Confederate flag to promote themselves during their peak years and it's intimately associated with them. I don't know if Dave Mustaine has ever associated himself or Megadeth with the glorification of the slavery of people based on their skin colour. I'd be concerned if he had done so but I'm probably too far along with being a fan to back out now.

However, there is a band called As I Lay Dying who were one of my favourite bands when I was younger. The first time I saw them I met the singer at the merch stand after their set and got a photo with him. Seven years ago he was arrested for trying to hire a hitman to kill his estranged wife a few months after the sixth and final time I'd seen them. He was then convicted and spent time in prison before getting early release. Since his release he managed to get his band back together and they've toured and last year they released an album. I have no interest in seeing them again and I only briefly checked out the album on Spotify as I can't take the band seriously now. I still listen to their older albums a bit when I'm playing my music library on shuffle, just like how I listen to some Pantera songs I've had since I was a teenager when I tried and failed to get into them. I never understood the euphoria surrounding them, but I didn't grow up with them, and now I understand what that flag means I feel that people who've been deifying them for so long should reconsider that.


I see that there were some other posts about this but they were a bit tldr and I can't be bothered looking through them.
 
I'm more willing to give Pantera a pass on the Confederate flag imagery, because the bar has changed over time. That doesn't make it right, but we also can't go ask Dimebag about it anymore. Maybe he'd think differently today. Maybe he'd say something racist - we can never know. But when Pantera operated, the Confederate flag as a symbol of "southern pride" was far more common and acceptable on the national and international stage than it is now.

I am less willing to give Anselmo a pass on tossing out a Nazi salute and screaming "white power". That's one you can apologize for, but it always makes you suspect.
 
Actually, Diesel's tl;dr post was the only one that was worth reading.

Again, I don't care about Anselmo and his crap. But please stop insinuating Dimebag was a racist. There's absolutely no grounds for such claims - Dime was universally acknowledged among fans and peers as one of the nicest guys out there. If you don't care to read up on him, just have the decency not to spit on a dead man's grave.
 
Ariana said:
Again, I don't care about Anselmo and his crap. But please stop insinuating Dimebag was a racist. There's absolutely no grounds for such claims - Dime was universally acknowledged among fans and peers as one of the nicest guys out there. If you don't care to read up on him, just have the decency not to spit on a dead man's grave.
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It's entirely possible he'd have lots to say in today's climate. And while many people before 2004 understood what the Confederate flag stood for, Dime was educated in the 1970s and 80s in the US south, when the Lost Cause was taught as truth.
 
Wiz, this is problematic. Dave doesn't say stuff on stage so that makes it okay? I totally accept there's a huge gulf between being a conspiracy nut & a white supremacist; but, still, you don't like what Dave says & thinks... but you still listen to & give your support to Megadeth. I just listen to Pantera occassionally, yet I'm lumped in with "knuckle draggers" and racists. This is an inconsistent position at best; rank hypocrisy at worst. Your points about Phil are bang on; points about the flag slightly less so, for the reasons others have stated.
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
just listen to Pantera occassionally, yet I'm lumped in with "knuckle draggers" and racists
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I also said that not all Pantera fans are knuckle draggers, but many of them are. I'm sure a lot of Megadeth fans are also similar sort of people, but from what I've observed when I hear Pantera songs played on the PA between bands at gigs/festivals and played at Rock bars they tend to attract a certain boorish sort of person. I've noticed the same sort of thing with a few other bands e.g. Machine Head, Lamb of God, Hatebreed. I can't compare the crowds at Megadeth concerts to Pantera crowds because the latter obviously don't exist anymore.
 
Black Wizard said:
I also said that not all Pantera fans are knuckle draggers, but many of them are. I'm sure a lot of Megadeth fans are also similar sort of people, but from what I've observed when I hear Pantera songs played on the PA between bands at gigs/festivals and played at Rock bars they tend to attract a certain boorish sort of person. I've noticed the same sort of thing with a few other bands e.g. Machine Head, Lamb of God, Hatebreed. I can't compare the crowds at Megadeth concerts to Pantera crowds because the latter obviously don't exist anymore.
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“When Pantera comes on, they’re not bringing out the best. They’re bringing out people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”
 
Getting back to the albums at hand for a moment..

Sons of Apollo isn't my favorite band or anything, but I nominated them because I thought they'd make a nice addition to the game. They are an enjoyable band, all in all, and make for a nice complement to Dream Theater. I'm really surprised the vote is as close as it is, to be honest. I just can't see what's so special about Skid Row. Also, as an aside, I nominated the first SoA album as well. Maybe that one will fare a little bit better if this one doesn't end up advancing.

It still doesn't seem like I'll be getting into Death anytime soon. My loss, I guess. Baroness has been one of the better discoveries of the game, so far.

If you're looking for some fun, pure, power metal, you could do a lot worse than Angra. I was actually already previously familiar with this album, and I still think it's good for what it is. Living Colour is good too, but I think they've come as far as they should for a band that hardly can be considered "metal".

Curiously enough, Tony MacAlpine opened for Sons of Apollo when I saw them live way back in January. He was fine. I wasn't really aware of Pantera's political beliefs or whatever, and frankly I don't really care. I enjoy their music, this album included, and that's enough to get my vote.

You may now continue on with the endless Pantera ranting...
 
LooseCannon said:
We have a tie again, any more people willing to break a tie?
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I'll give it a go.

I'm voting for Skid Row because I have no interest in Sons of Apollo or any of Mike Portnoy's ten million post-Dream Theater projects.

The Baroness song was just a short instrumental and I can't bothered listening to anything else so Death get it by default, although that song was pretty crap.

Neither song by Angra nor Living Colour felt particularly remarkable to me, but Angra seemed to be just generic Power Metal and the Living Colour song is at least sort of groovy.

And after all of the Pantera-related aggro over this weekend I will actually vote for 'Far Beyond Driven' as I have no interest in instrumental albums and this Pantera album at least has some OKish songs on it. Now I need some Savlon for my knuckles after they've been scraping along the ground.
 
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karljant said:
AHAHAHAHHAAHAHAH or "A(r)en't Rap"... obviously racist!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
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“Ape Rant” would be the most apropos anagram for Pantera.

I wouldn’t go as far as Wiz did on the Confederate flag angle for the reasons others have stated — in the 1980s the Confederate flag was seen as a “Southern Pride” symbol (see The Dukes Of Hazzard TV show if you had any doubt) and awareness only started to turn the corner later in the 90s. Anselmo is the suspect one. And even in saying that, I would generally evaluate art separately from the beliefs of the artist. If I thought Pantera was good, I’d talk about the music as its own thing and then just lament the fact that Anselmo was probably a Nazi. I really only mentioned it because it’s yet another reason to not be thrilled about the band.

Re: Knuckle dragging, I have to say that my personal experience definitely points in this direction. The only Pantera fans I’ve met in real life have been angry, drunk frat boys and trailer park types. I’m sure there are plenty of well-adjusted people who enjoy Pantera for whatever reason, but there is clearly a mad, dumb contingent of fans for mad, dumb music. Maybe they’re only 30%, maybe they’re 75%. I don’t know. But there’s a lot of them.
 
I don’t come back to Pantera too often because it’s really just a heavy jolt of testosterone to the system. Dimebag was a great guitarist with some serious chops and a guitar tone that blew me away when I first heard the band. Anselmo could pack a punch one moment and then lift off to the stratosphere the next — see Cemetery Gates’s final notes for instance. But what I like about him I can find in other vocalists from bands I care about a lot more. They’re not bad, they’re just not something I care to return to that often.
 
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