GREATEST METAL ALBUM CUP - Winner: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son!
- Thread starter LooseCannon
- Start date
Black Sabbath delivers the coup d'grace to Kreator. They've earned a matchup with Judas Priest in the next league.
In Flames wins the battle of death metal genres with a decent win over Morbid Angel. They'll get a growls-laden challenge from Opeth in League 1.
Alter Bridge completes the minnow run to the Premiership with a narrow win over System of a Down. Their reward? Facing off against Rainbow.
Judas Priest dispatches this Ozzy Osbourne album, but you know, there's another Ozzy album yet to come.
In Flames wins the battle of death metal genres with a decent win over Morbid Angel. They'll get a growls-laden challenge from Opeth in League 1.
Alter Bridge completes the minnow run to the Premiership with a narrow win over System of a Down. Their reward? Facing off against Rainbow.
Judas Priest dispatches this Ozzy Osbourne album, but you know, there's another Ozzy album yet to come.
Venom - Welcome to Hell (1981) How it got here List entries: Rolling Stone 74, Loudwire 14, Metal Rules 86, DigitalDreamDoor 13 Maidenfans Nominators: @Magnus | |
| League 2 - Match 13 | vs. |
Candlemass - Epicus Doomicus Metallicus (1986) How it got here List entries: DigitalDreamDoor 38 Maidenfans Nominators: @karljant, @Magnus, @Travis The Dragon Previous Rounds: League 4: Defeated Accept - Restless & Wild 18-10. League 3: Defeated W.A.S.P. - W.A.S.P. 18-15. |
[TR]
Helloween - Keeper of the Seven Keys, Pt. II (1988) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 28, DigitalDreamDoor 43, Metal Kingdom 6 Maidenfans Nominators: @KidInTheDark666, @Poto | |
| League 2 - Match 14 | vs. |
Death - Symbolic (1995) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 58, Metal Kingdom 34 Maidenfans Nominators: @Saapanael Previous Rounds: League 3: Defeated Rainbow - Long Live Rock and Roll 17-16. |
Guns n’ Roses - Appetite For Destruction (1987) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 13, Metal Kingdom 23 Maidenfans Nominators: @Ariana, @Dityn DJ James, @Niall Kielt, @The Dissident, @Yax | |
| League 2 - Match 15 | vs. |
Tool - Aenima (1996) How it got here List entries: Rolling Stone 18, DigitalDreamDoor 77 Maidenfans Nominators: @Lampwick 43 Previous Rounds: League 3: Defeated Iron Maiden - The Final Frontier 17-16. |
Rage Against the Machine - Rage Against the Machine (1992) How it got here List entries: Rolling Stone 24, DigitalDreamDoor 91, Metal Kingdom 44 Maidenfans Nominators: @srfc | |
| League 2 - Match 16 | vs. |
Megadeth - So Far, So Good… So What! (1988) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 49 Maidenfans Nominators: @Jer Previous Rounds: League 4: Defeated Symphony X - The Odyssey 18-11. League 3: Defeated Bathory - Under the Sign of the Black Mark 21-12. |
Magnus
Pica Serdica
And here it is.Dreaded match 13 coming any moment now...
Candlemass' debut is objectively the better album but I'll vote for Venom's nevertheless.
KidInTheDark666
What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine too
I wouldn't be so sure.
srfc
Ancient Mariner
Venom - I understand the influence of the aesthetic but musically they just aren't competent
Candlemass - opinion given before
Candlemass with the win
Helloween - I have this record but I haven't really listened to it much, as Power Metal is not my thing, I Want Out is a great track even if it does take the blueprint of Phil Lynott and Gary Moore's Out in the Fields and copies it completely, but I'll turn a blind eye to that as it's done so well.
Death - opinion given before
Helloween with the win
Guns N' Roses - I've always felt this is a slightly overrated record, Side A is phenomenal and obviously Sweet Child O' Mine and Rocket Queen are too but I think the rest of Side B is average enough. Saying that the good stuff is up there with the best from anyone.
Tool - opinion given before
Guns N'F'N Roses with the win
Rage Against the Machine - The first debut record I remember becoming a fan of when it was released. Mixing hip hop with rock and not intending it to be a novelty was something new, and while the student lefty politics isn't my thing it's anger with a sincerity that compliments the music. The music is great, no nonsense old school riffs captured in what is possibly the best all time production job, it sounds as polished as anything out there with audiophile dynamic consideration yet still manages to keep the vibe of 4 lads in a rehersal room. No track is weak, and you all probably know the example track and maybe Bullet in the Head and/or Bombtrack as well but if you're looking to dip your toe into a few more tracks you won't go wrong with Know Your Enemy, Freedom, Wake Up, Take the Power Back or Township Rebellion, actually any of the tracks.
Megadeth - opinion given before
A tough one but I'm going to back my own nominee in this one, not even as a face saving exercise, I just think it's a better record. Rage Against The Machine with the win.
Candlemass - opinion given before
Candlemass with the win
Helloween - I have this record but I haven't really listened to it much, as Power Metal is not my thing, I Want Out is a great track even if it does take the blueprint of Phil Lynott and Gary Moore's Out in the Fields and copies it completely, but I'll turn a blind eye to that as it's done so well.
Death - opinion given before
Helloween with the win
Guns N' Roses - I've always felt this is a slightly overrated record, Side A is phenomenal and obviously Sweet Child O' Mine and Rocket Queen are too but I think the rest of Side B is average enough. Saying that the good stuff is up there with the best from anyone.
Tool - opinion given before
Guns N'F'N Roses with the win
Rage Against the Machine - The first debut record I remember becoming a fan of when it was released. Mixing hip hop with rock and not intending it to be a novelty was something new, and while the student lefty politics isn't my thing it's anger with a sincerity that compliments the music. The music is great, no nonsense old school riffs captured in what is possibly the best all time production job, it sounds as polished as anything out there with audiophile dynamic consideration yet still manages to keep the vibe of 4 lads in a rehersal room. No track is weak, and you all probably know the example track and maybe Bullet in the Head and/or Bombtrack as well but if you're looking to dip your toe into a few more tracks you won't go wrong with Know Your Enemy, Freedom, Wake Up, Take the Power Back or Township Rebellion, actually any of the tracks.
Megadeth - opinion given before
A tough one but I'm going to back my own nominee in this one, not even as a face saving exercise, I just think it's a better record. Rage Against The Machine with the win.
Jer
A window to the west, a blazing star above
This Venom album has terrible production and the songwriting isn’t great, but there are some cool grooves to be found, and there’s a punky flavor to this raw metal offering that’s kind of appealing. That said, this Candlemass album is better across the board, so this isn’t a hard call. Congratusorrylations, @Magnus, but your throuple Mjarlvis The Dragnuts’ nominee is superior. Winner: Candlemass
This second match might seem on the surface like an obvious choice for me, but I’m really not that fond of Weikath-penned Helloween, and Keeper II is full of it. His early songwriting just isn’t very good — disjointed and too Broadway showtuney once it starts down that path. I’ve always preferred Hansen’s writing, which is why I’ve always preferred Gamma Ray to Helloween. So yeah, “Eagle Fly Free” is the one Weikath track I like here, and “March Of Time” and “I Want Out” from Hansen are good, and I really couldn’t care less about the rest. The vocals on the Death album stink, but the music is consistently very good. This is another case where if this was the “best 3 songs on an album” contest the decision would be clear, but comparing full album to full album I’m going to have to reward consistent strength with an unfortunate skidmark over an album with a majority of content that I don’t care about. Sorry, KotoInThePark1131, but I’m going with @Saapanael ’s choice here. Winner: Death
Well, well, well, Appetite For Destruction. Talk about overrated albums. Yes, it’s got three stone-cold classics in “Welcome To The Jungle”, “Paradise City”, and “Sweet Child O’ Mine”. Yes, it’s got a strong JV team with “Nighttrain”, “Mr. Brownstone”, and “Think About You”. But the rest of the album? No thanks. “It’s So Easy”, “Out Ta Get Me”, “My Michelle”, “You’re Crazy”, and “Rocket Queen” run the gamut from insipid to actively nails-on-a-chalkboard annoying, and that’s nearly half the album’s runtime. That makes it a noteworthy album with some great songs, but it doesn’t make it a great album. Meanwhile we have this Tool album, which is definitely more consistent in quality, but never reaches the crazy heights that the best GnR tracks reach. Do I reward a half-great album, or a consistently very strong one? I could probably go either way, but since I’m sure GnR is going to get a lot of kneejerk emotional votes, I’ll go with the presumed underdog instead. Sorry, Nityana Dissidjent Jyakies, but @Lampwick 43 ’s nominee gets my vote. Winner: Tool
Rage Against The Machine has some cool fat grooves and decent rapping, but then it does that over and over and over again. I mean, how many times can you write a song that just alternates between a couple of grooves with samey-sounding raps before it gets old? Yes, there are a few spots where it deviates slightly from that formula, but this album wears out its welcome pretty quickly for me. And if you like the politically-tinged screeds of RATM, how could you not like the politically-tinged screed of this Megadeth sample song, “Hook In Mouth”? Mustaine totally eviscerates the PMRC here and he does it as an acrostic, for fuck’s sake. Tell me with a straight face that he doesn’t slay it at least as hard as Zach de la Rocha here. Plus there’s some awesome guitar work, and unlike with RATM, the rest of the album doesn’t sound exactly the same. If that’s not enough, go listen to the single-breath rant in “Liar” and tell me Mustaine can’t throw it down with the best white boy rappers.
Yeah, I thought so — no contest here. Sorry, @srfc, but Megadave takes this one in a walk, and I would say that even if it weren’t for own-nominee bias. Winner: Megadeth
This second match might seem on the surface like an obvious choice for me, but I’m really not that fond of Weikath-penned Helloween, and Keeper II is full of it. His early songwriting just isn’t very good — disjointed and too Broadway showtuney once it starts down that path. I’ve always preferred Hansen’s writing, which is why I’ve always preferred Gamma Ray to Helloween. So yeah, “Eagle Fly Free” is the one Weikath track I like here, and “March Of Time” and “I Want Out” from Hansen are good, and I really couldn’t care less about the rest. The vocals on the Death album stink, but the music is consistently very good. This is another case where if this was the “best 3 songs on an album” contest the decision would be clear, but comparing full album to full album I’m going to have to reward consistent strength with an unfortunate skidmark over an album with a majority of content that I don’t care about. Sorry, KotoInThePark1131, but I’m going with @Saapanael ’s choice here. Winner: Death
Well, well, well, Appetite For Destruction. Talk about overrated albums. Yes, it’s got three stone-cold classics in “Welcome To The Jungle”, “Paradise City”, and “Sweet Child O’ Mine”. Yes, it’s got a strong JV team with “Nighttrain”, “Mr. Brownstone”, and “Think About You”. But the rest of the album? No thanks. “It’s So Easy”, “Out Ta Get Me”, “My Michelle”, “You’re Crazy”, and “Rocket Queen” run the gamut from insipid to actively nails-on-a-chalkboard annoying, and that’s nearly half the album’s runtime. That makes it a noteworthy album with some great songs, but it doesn’t make it a great album. Meanwhile we have this Tool album, which is definitely more consistent in quality, but never reaches the crazy heights that the best GnR tracks reach. Do I reward a half-great album, or a consistently very strong one? I could probably go either way, but since I’m sure GnR is going to get a lot of kneejerk emotional votes, I’ll go with the presumed underdog instead. Sorry, Nityana Dissidjent Jyakies, but @Lampwick 43 ’s nominee gets my vote. Winner: Tool
Rage Against The Machine has some cool fat grooves and decent rapping, but then it does that over and over and over again. I mean, how many times can you write a song that just alternates between a couple of grooves with samey-sounding raps before it gets old? Yes, there are a few spots where it deviates slightly from that formula, but this album wears out its welcome pretty quickly for me. And if you like the politically-tinged screeds of RATM, how could you not like the politically-tinged screed of this Megadeth sample song, “Hook In Mouth”? Mustaine totally eviscerates the PMRC here and he does it as an acrostic, for fuck’s sake. Tell me with a straight face that he doesn’t slay it at least as hard as Zach de la Rocha here. Plus there’s some awesome guitar work, and unlike with RATM, the rest of the album doesn’t sound exactly the same. If that’s not enough, go listen to the single-breath rant in “Liar” and tell me Mustaine can’t throw it down with the best white boy rappers.
Yeah, I thought so — no contest here. Sorry, @srfc, but Megadave takes this one in a walk, and I would say that even if it weren’t for own-nominee bias. Winner: Megadeth
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Venom, but it's a pity vote.
Death, easily, obviously. That album is fucking awesome. "I Want Out" is a really great song, and "Keeper of the Seven Keys" is a cool epic, but this is really no contest. Chuck's own skeleton would annihilate Helloween.
Tough choice but I'll go with GNR. Some good songs on that album (Ænima is pretty boring).
RATM but only because I'm tired of seeing So Far, So Good... So What!
Death, easily, obviously. That album is fucking awesome. "I Want Out" is a really great song, and "Keeper of the Seven Keys" is a cool epic, but this is really no contest. Chuck's own skeleton would annihilate Helloween.
Tough choice but I'll go with GNR. Some good songs on that album (Ænima is pretty boring).
RATM but only because I'm tired of seeing So Far, So Good... So What!
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Candlemass has an incredible album. I know that Venom’s album is equally influential, but I just don’t like anything about it.
I hate both vocalists in the second matchup. But I can wave away Helloween’s vocals because the music appeals to me more. Dio help me I just don’t understand why Chuck never hired a real singer/screamer.
The three most recent Tool albums are better than this one. I’m not a Guns N Roses fan, but this album is great.
fucking Rage Against The fucking Machine. This album defied genres, created and perfected a new one, and has 100x more groove and catchiness than 90% of SFSGSW. I love Megadeth, but please, can we kick this shit album to the curb?
I hate both vocalists in the second matchup. But I can wave away Helloween’s vocals because the music appeals to me more. Dio help me I just don’t understand why Chuck never hired a real singer/screamer.
The three most recent Tool albums are better than this one. I’m not a Guns N Roses fan, but this album is great.
fucking Rage Against The fucking Machine. This album defied genres, created and perfected a new one, and has 100x more groove and catchiness than 90% of SFSGSW. I love Megadeth, but please, can we kick this shit album to the curb?
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
He did actually, as Control Denied for their only album The Fragile Art of Existence. And it’s near the nadir of his canon.
Detective Beauregard
Leviathan of Doggerland
Candlemass, because even though I'm not typically a fan of constantly mid-tempo music like this, Venom is straightforward by comparison and does nothing for me.
I really don't like Helloween's vocals. It's my gripe when it comes to a lot of '80s stuff and power metal in general; there's no depth. The music here is... fine. Death's is better, even if I don't like their vocals, either. Still, Death.
Guns n' Roses is a lot like AC/DC to me - classic rock with a "fun" sound but little depth. I'm not even a huge fan of Aenima; I think it's Tool's fourth best album (reminder: they only have five). Still, there's a handful of songs on there that are leagues deeper than anything I've ever heard Guns n' Roses do. Tool.
RATM has some punchy riffs and smooth grooves, but it's going to take a lot to get me to vote for anything that contains rap. As much as I want this particular Megadeth album to die a slow, painful, and possibly even fiery death for defeating the Symphony X classic The Odyssey, I'd rather listen to it than an album full of rap. Megadeth, sadly.
I really don't like Helloween's vocals. It's my gripe when it comes to a lot of '80s stuff and power metal in general; there's no depth. The music here is... fine. Death's is better, even if I don't like their vocals, either. Still, Death.
Guns n' Roses is a lot like AC/DC to me - classic rock with a "fun" sound but little depth. I'm not even a huge fan of Aenima; I think it's Tool's fourth best album (reminder: they only have five). Still, there's a handful of songs on there that are leagues deeper than anything I've ever heard Guns n' Roses do. Tool.
RATM has some punchy riffs and smooth grooves, but it's going to take a lot to get me to vote for anything that contains rap. As much as I want this particular Megadeth album to die a slow, painful, and possibly even fiery death for defeating the Symphony X classic The Odyssey, I'd rather listen to it than an album full of rap. Megadeth, sadly.
karljant
Ancient Mariner
Not liking Chuck because of raspy voices or whatever I get it. But liking traditional metal voices and not liking Kiske makes as much sense as liking Satriani and hating guitar playing.
He did. Tim Aymar for Control Denied's The Fragile Art Of Existence.
Spambot
Meme Lord
I completely agree with points you said and I also mentioned before music scene would be completely different today if it weren't for him, but I probably sounded like: I don't like him, ergo, he sucks. Not my intention at all.
My intention was to point that when "something's great", people merge a lot surrounding factors with it and put an "=" sign with everything that "something great" touches. You mentioned The Beatles, one of the greatest bands ever. Does that mean Ringo Starr is one of the greatest drummers ever? What happened in the late 60s happened in a bit different version 10 years later. How much would we all frown if somebody said Johnny Rotten is one of the greatest singers ever?
I agree that his way of singing played a huge part of Black Sabbath success. But once he went solo (and a bit before that), stepped away from that vocal experimentation and went for more straight-forward approach, you can notice his singing became a bit... limited? (or maybe lacks range and variety, I really can't find the correct term). 80s onward, it could be mastering or whatever, but I can hear his real voice is hidden behind a ton of effects, especially on live tracks that I've heard.
Is Ozzy unique? Yes. Influential? Yes. Great performer? Yes. Iconic frontman? Yes. But a singer, as in "he can sing really well"? OK, defining/rating something often involves opinions and emotions and I try to separate those two. In these kind of cases, I always ask myself how much does my personal opinion relies on my statements so I try and find different and/or opposite examples. So here's two that quickly came to my mind:
Lemmy. Love his voice, binged on Motorhead in high school, saw him live - the whole she-bang. Also unique voice, influential music and iconic status in metal community. But even if I like his voice and his music, can I say he is one of the greatest singers? No, I can not.
Or I ask myself the opposite question: is there a singer whose music I don't really listen to but I hear/think he's a great singer? Yes, Dio.
So yeah, I agree with all your points and kudos to him for that, but I don't think all those also mean he is one of the greatest singers (as in the act of singing itself).
@Forostar @karljant
Why are you two coughing over there? Sharon is right... for Ozzy. If it weren't for her, he would either be 6 feet underground or his project would involve GoFundMe.
EDIT:
@Zare Saying Iron Maiden in third tier metal band is equivalent of giving Nobel prize for literature to Bob Dylan (her I agree with Mr CH).
But you're onto something with your conclusion. I've never really thought about it but it makes sense that Sabbath appealed a lot to the hippie generation.
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karljant
Ancient Mariner
If you say so Mr. Nostradamus...
Well, I don't think he rates in terms of singing skill. But when it comes to being the singer for a major band I'm not entirely sure that skill has anything to do with it. We know, for example, that Ringo Starr wasn't the best drummer in the world, technically. He wasn't even the best drummer in the world! But great? There's an argument for it, just because his drumming influenced generations of pop music and certainly convinced more than a few people to pick up the sticks himself.
I think it's a difference between favourite, best, and great. To me, favourite is what I like. Best is what the critical or educated community leans towards. Great is based on influence and achievement.
Midnight
The Ever-Present "It"
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I like raspy voices, I don’t like bad screamers. Chuck may be really good at riffs and writing, but his scream is one of the worst I’ve ever heard. In general, it takes a lot for me to like a harsh vocalist and I normally prefer gutturals (Opeth/Amon Amarth) to the more reedy, airy, shrieky screaming.Not liking Chuck because of raspy voices or whatever I get it. But liking traditional metal voices and not liking Kiske makes as much sense as liking Satriani and hating guitar playing.
Kiske sounds like a traditional power metal singer to me. Like Dickinson without the gravitas. I don’t like traditional power metal singers (or I guess most traditional metal singers either). To be honest, I don’t even know what a “traditional metal voice” means. Is it Ozzy? Is it Dio? Is it Bruce? Is it Halford? Kiske trends far more into power metal territory, and the only singers I like in that genre are either unique in tone (Khan/Karevik/Russell Allen) or women.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Kiske is very unique. His bright voice. The clarity, his high range. His stability. Unique combination.
The latest three you mention have that rasp and are not unique because of that.
Apart from Kiske (apart from a young Geoff Tate and a young Dickinson), other male singers use falsetto or can't sing that high.
Kiske possesses an almost 4 octave vocal range, is capable of reaching extremely high notes (A5) and low baritone notes (E2) as well.
Many singers cite him as a major influence, but a little amount of them sounds like him.
There are many with the Lande, Allen, Khan techniques. They do not sound natural, it is a forced sounding technique, as if someone grabs their throats with a strong hand, squeezing out the sound. Hard work.
Kiske effortlessly changes/reaches awesome notes. Pure talent. He's the Mark Knopfler of heavy metal singing.
The latest three you mention have that rasp and are not unique because of that.
Apart from Kiske (apart from a young Geoff Tate and a young Dickinson), other male singers use falsetto or can't sing that high.
Kiske possesses an almost 4 octave vocal range, is capable of reaching extremely high notes (A5) and low baritone notes (E2) as well.
Many singers cite him as a major influence, but a little amount of them sounds like him.
There are many with the Lande, Allen, Khan techniques. They do not sound natural, it is a forced sounding technique, as if someone grabs their throats with a strong hand, squeezing out the sound. Hard work.
Kiske effortlessly changes/reaches awesome notes. Pure talent. He's the Mark Knopfler of heavy metal singing.
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