European Politics

*That same thing happened in USA with recent Trump trials, but those guys are leaders and as such they need to have an iron clad democracy they really need free speech because they need genuine input. And so for most of cases Trump wouldn't be barred from running. I respect that.
And now look how easy it was to get the premier candidate out of the way in the land of French Revolution.
 
With Trump it's different for me - if January 6th was a coup attempt (which I think is somewhat debatable, but I'm willing to assent to that, as most seem to think it was)
I tend to grumble a little about it, since I can't help myself, it seems to me the legitimacy and appropriateness of an aggressive mob depends on how much its political leaning aligns with the political leaning of the observer, but I digress.

and if it was decidedly ascribable to Trump, with his full knowledge and intent (which is my main point of contention, tbh), then he probably should have been barred from running for the office and it would be within democracy boundaries. (Then again, to err on the side of letting the person run when in doubt is probably a good choice anyway).

But also based on that alone, not for any of his potential other crimes and misdeeds. Our former president went straight from prison to the office. Sure, he was a political prisoner, but the legal continuity and discontinuity is still kinda problematic ... for a lawyer anyway.

Law is mutable and malleable, what was a crime yesterday doesn't need to be a crime tomorrow, therefore I advise carefulness, especially if we're talking about constitutional rights (like voting or running for office). If a prisoner can vote, why can't he be the candidate? And so on.
 
Yeah, that was exactly not my point, which I suspect you must know very well. Very well, then.

(Also, bringing up the French revolution as this huge, eo ipso apparent own makes me thing you should rewatch Le dialogue des Carmélites one of these days, my friend.)

Never mind. Never mind. I'll stick to music and games.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
Yeah, that was exactly not my point, which I suspect you must know very well. Very well, then.

(Also, bringing up the French revolution as this huge, eo ipso apparent own makes me thing you should rewatch Le dialogue des Carmélites one of these days, my friend.)

Never mind. Never mind. I'll stick to music and games.
Click to expand...

Have you noticed that @____no5 also replied and he brought up the French Revolution? Could it be that I was answering to that, in fact?
 
Perun said:
Have you noticed that @____no5 also replied and he brought up the French Revolution? Could it be that I was answering to that, in fact?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I didn't, I didn't notice the part about the revolution, I didn't consider his argument to be as extensive - or even leading, in the past few posts - and maybe I just didn't expect you reacting first to the person who you suspect of engaging in mala fide and who you repeatedly accuse of gaslighting you, especially if that person was partially reacting to my carefully written and more substantial argument put forth in good faith.

Sorry, it was probably presumptuous of me. Still, the part about me probably being a bad fit for these subfora still stands.
 
Can we maybe just all behave like adults now? I'm including myself in this. I've grown so tired of everything about this forum that every day I just feel like deleting my account and leaving.
 
Perun said:
Le Pen was convicted because she broke the law. A system that would allow politicians to get away with doing whatever they want just because they have the power to do so...

...is literally what the French Revolution abolished.
Click to expand...

It is impossible to explain it better. Bravo, my friend, bravo!
 
LooseCannon said:
would you like me to ban you from the threads?
Click to expand...

Don't worry, if necessary, I can show myself out. I just forgot I was still following this thread and decided to give it one last chance. If you feel as if I transgressed some kind of rule, then please accept my sincere apologies, the offence wasn't meant. Please see below.

Perun said:
Can we maybe just all behave like adults now? I'm including myself in this. I've grown so tired of everything about this forum that every day I just feel like deleting my account and leaving.
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm sorry if I've added to your bad experience with the forum lately. And to think I would do so right after I've returned after half a year. But I don't know what happened elsewhere and online presence can be tiresome, sure.

But mate, I care about you and you know that. I mean, I'm really sorry, but after you taking offence at my flippant comment in the US politics thread I've tried to apologise and explain, but it was to no use, no engagement, just ignore.

Here I tried to once again engage honestly, in good faith and yeah, I admit that it stings a bit that the comment, which was pretty long and took a bit of care (and was meant as a genuine argument/discussion point) was completely ignored and you instead went to argue with 5 again. I mean, my ego can take it, but I really didn't understand if you perceived it as some elaborate trolling or what, because I'm re-reading it and I don't see it.

But you can talk to me, without reservations, without sarcasm, I will always listen to what you have to say and my offer of a private message or video call or something still stands after all this time. Even if I'm supremely annoying to you. Please remember that.


I don't want to be a prick. Despite embracing a completely different worldview, values and everything than most people here (including probably all the mods, which is a bit unfortunate), I am willing to engage with others up to the standard of my general thinking and behaving, sincerely, annoyingly wordily, sure, but honestly. I am convinced that every time when I engaged in some slight trolling on this forum, it was always in proper context and well recognisable. I never intentionally offended anyone, with the one exception where I turned somebody else's offensive remark against them (which I got a warning for).

I can give this forum a differing opinion - an opinion of someone whose political views for example aren't all that usual anymore, but well-thought out, comprehensive, structured and completely sincere - and striving for the ultimate Good. Also from the experience of someone whose country has experience with unfreedom and which experienced terror from the Right and from the Left. And a (bad) lawyer and (worse) theologian to boot.
Without false humility, I would expect that to be worth engaging with at least a bit.

I don't really know why I feel so dissuaded to participate in these threads. But my heart is telling me there is some hostility towards me. When I left in September, it was after engaging in these threads and after I felt like I was being treated unfairly.

I don't want to complain and nag. Just wanted to share.

Maybe I'm projecting, I don't know. But this is my attempt at an adult response. Also, I wish we had a (small c) conservative or at least centrist mod here as well. When you keep disagreeing with the mods all the time, it's .. awkward. Sometimes it can make you very easily feel somewhat bullied. Again, sorry, don't want to whine.


* inhales *
* exhales *

If you can get behind what I wrote above and if you believe that wicked as I may be, I genuinely want to be a good person and want me to be present on the entire forum as I used to be, please tell me so.
I can solemnly swear there has never been a bad intent behind my behaviour in the last 12 years that I've been a member. And you know I take such oaths seriously, because I say them in front of someone.
But a good faith from me should result in good faith from you.

But I can also leave these threads and refrain from engagement. I think I'll leave it up to you, mates.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
Don't worry, if necessary, I can show myself out. I just forgot I was still following this thread and decided to give it one last chance. If you feel as if I transgressed some kind of rule, then please accept my sincere apologies, the offence wasn't meant. Please see below.
Click to expand...
No, I was just saying because you keep saying you don't want to participate but can't help yourself! I meant it entirely to be helpful to your stated desires.
 
This is a genuine question, because I've seen Judas and other members mention this before: What does it matter what political opinions the mods have?

There isn't a single instance, at least since I've joined the forum, that I've seen someone being censored for being conservative. The mods participate as regular members in these discussions and only ever wield their powers when things get out of control to tell us to rein it in a bit.

In the US politics threads we've had Trump supporters, and while they have definitely seen push back for some of their posts and opinions, that is kind of the point of a politics thread. There should be discussion. I haven't seen the mods use their powers or rank to treat a conservative member unfairly. In fact, I'm far left and some might argue that I'm closer to the views of the mods than a conservative is, but I'm pretty sure they've rolled their eyes more than once at some of my (political) posts and takes.

So, what exactly would change if any of the mods/admins were conservative or more moderate? Would there be any meaningful changes in the behavior and the discourse of such threads? Maybe I'd catch a ban for one of my more hostile replies, I guess lol.

Edit (as to not derail too much):
Perun said:
Has anyone ever been hurt when LooseCannon or Mosh or Diesel 11 or Vaenyr or MrKnickerbocker did the same? These guys are way smarter than I am, and they take far fewer words than me to hit the mark.
Click to expand...
Now it's my turn to be offended lol
I definitely don't deserve being on that list. You guys, including you Perun, are far more eloquent, knowledgeable on so many topics and smarter than me. I'm simply stubborn and not afraid of being blunt, for better or for worse.
 
Last edited:
@JudasMyGuide: I admit I got really pissed off at your comment yesterday, specifically the "progleft circlejerk" part. I know it wasn't specifically directed at me personally, but I'm really fucking tired at all the shit that's being hurled at me just because I'm trying to bring facts to the table and telling people this is what I want to use as the basis for discussion. I've been called a pompous antisemitic ass for it on this board, and I'm having people close to me irl be genuinely offended when I do that.

I don't know what it is about me that people are so fucking bent on converting me to their opinion and being hurt when I give them a taste of their own medicine, but it's tiresome. It feels like everybody's crying for "let's have a proper discussion again", "let's listen to each other again" and all that shit only to emotionally blackmail me into shutting up when they realise I'm talking about things based on what I know rather than what I feel. I've been recently told I'm being unfair by someone who was trying to talk to me about a book he hadn't read but I had and demonstrated to him one of his opinions on it was unfounded. I'm just tired of dealing with this stuff. And now you come and because I'm telling you off for using a language I have no patience for, you get all sulky and dramatic and "oh I'm not going to post here", whatever. Why don't you just ignore me? Is it that hard? What's so fucking special about me?

I was actually planning to respond to your post in this thread, and it would have even been a sympathetic response, but when I came home I was just really tired, started to type only to find that after a line I couldn't focus anymore, so instead I just went ahead and posted the thing I wanted to say to 5 instead, thinking it was obvious that it was directed at him.

As for @____no5, I'm so enormously pissed off at him because he pushed me into reading his posts via DM and tagging when I was actually at the point of just going to let him be and ignore his posts, and I thought he might actually want to have a conversation, only to find he flat-out refuses to engage. I put him on ignore for a while, and I wish I hadn't looked at the board yesterday morning to see that he was posting lies I had already debunked in a post I made only because he asked me to read his post (I believed he wanted me to engage with it, but it turns out he just wanted me to swallow the shit he posted there). That genuinely pissed me off, and your "progleft circlejerk" post was kinda caught in the middle of that, so I directed some of the anger I had at him to you. I apologise for that.

And it also pissed me off that today he was going on with telling me how he was about to make a personal post, again, what the fuck is so special about me that everyone's hurt when I call them out on their bullshit? Has anyone ever been hurt when @LooseCannon or @Mosh or @Diesel 11 or @Vaenyr or @MrKnickerbocker did the same? These guys are way smarter than I am, and they take far fewer words than me to hit the mark.

Anyway, I have nothing against you, Judas. I like you, I still do, you have some of the quirkiest and most unique opinions I ever encountered, and even though they sometimes baffle me, I always feel richer for having read them. Hadn't it been for that stupid situation yesterday morning, the first thing I would have said to you is what I'm going to say now: Welcome back, I missed you.

But please don't take me so seriously. Can't I just have a grumpy morning too?
 
Perun said:
what the fuck is so special about me that everyone's hurt when I call them out on their bullshit? Has anyone ever been hurt when @LooseCannon or @Mosh or @Diesel 11 or @Vaenyr or @MrKnickerbocker did the same? These guys are way smarter than I am, and they take far fewer words than me to hit the mark.
Click to expand...

Combined with

Perun said:
Why don't you just ignore me? Is it that hard? What's so fucking special about me?
Click to expand...

just to wit, I do care about you and your reactions in particular because we have shared history, because we have written to each other, because I felt your pain as my personal when you were going through tough times, because I have you on my Facebook, because I never got into a serious argument with you and because you once said you consider me a true friend. I do and will remember that. I have many flaws, but my one strong suit is that I tend to be ridiculously loyal.

That's why I might have been so pubescently butt-hurt because I felt hostility from you in particular. I realise it was wrong place, wrong time now. Thank you for sharing all this.

Perun said:
Anyway, I have nothing against you, Judas. I like you, I still do, you have some of the quirkiest and most unique opinions I ever encountered, and even though they sometimes baffle me, I always feel richer for having read them. Hadn't it been for that stupid situation yesterday morning, the first thing I would have said to you is what I'm going to say now: Welcome back, I missed you.
Click to expand...

Thank you. This means a lot. I missed you too.
(and I apologise for entering with a wrong foot, with a tad too acerbic/flippant comment)
 
Last edited:
JudasMyGuide said:
just to wit, I do care about you and your reactions in particular because we have shared history, because we have written to each other, because I felt your pain as my personal when you were going through tough times, because I have you on my Facebook, because I never got into a serious argument with you and because you once said you consider me a true friend. I do and will remember that. I have many flaws, but my one strong suit is that I tend to be ridiculously loyal.

That's why I might have been so pubescently butt-hurt because I felt hostility from you in particular. I realise it was wrong place, wrong time now. Thank you for sharing all this.
Click to expand...

I get that, I just have these moments with people, and they're sometimes bewildering. Anyway, let's take it a bit easier now.
 
Re French Revolution. Nobody said that politicians should be above the law and not punished. Don’t distort my words. I say don’t bar them from being elected. Just as USA pretty much does. Try them, imprison them but let the people decide who they want to govern them.
You don’t see that by not following this logic it’s an open invitation to bar whoever system they don’t like from being elected?

It was a bad example to bring the French Revolution, see Reign of Terror, Robespierre’s purges, one will stick there and loose the essence. Which is don’t use trials to bar people from being elected. It will damage the democracy in times like that.

But as I said. It will happen again and again. I hope after one, two similar cases more people here will recognize that there is a pattern.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
Law is mutable and malleable, what was a crime yesterday doesn't need to be a crime tomorrow, therefore I advise carefulness, especially if we're talking about constitutional rights (like voting or running for office). If a prisoner can vote, why can't he be the candidate? And so on.
Click to expand...

This.
This is a genuine expression of justice and democracy.
 
This constant concern trolling about slippery slopes and "threats to democracy" whenever a far right figure faces the slightest of consequences for their illegal actions is far too transparent and is getting very tiresome. Funnily enough we never see these reactions for when politians who lean left face consequences.

It's easy: Democracy is a contract. You have to abide by certain rules. Far right figures constantly treat democratic processes like dirt and engage in undemocratic behavior time and time again. If they can't respect democracy they are not allowed to participate, it's that simple. No one is owed the chance to lead their country. That's not a birthright, it's a responsibility you have to fight for, to earn. And for most countries it isn't even unconditional; you have to meet certain criteria, so "constitutional rights" are irrelevant to that point.

She's a corrupt politician who committed blatantly illegal acts over literal years. Now she gets to face the consequences of her own actions.
 
Vaenyr said:
That's not a birthright, it's a responsibility you have to fight for, to earn.
Click to expand...

Agree with you on everything in that post except for this. Being in a position of authority is something nobody should want. It should be the most unattractive thing in the world. It should be seen as a chore, not a privilege. It should be a burden that you should want to carry as briefly as possible. You should be treated with absolute mistrust on every step along your way. Everything you do and say should be scrutinised, you should be held accountable for everything and you should fear that any misstep will get you in trouble you can never recover from. And you should not be allowed to stay in this position for one second beyond a pre-determined time. The moment you start clinging to such a position, that moment you should be removed, by force if necessary.

This is the only way I can find moral justification for the necessary evil of giving one person power over another.

I know this is not realistic, but since we've moved the discussion to what we think things should be like, this is how I feel.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top