European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
So I've been debating to myself whether I should add any further comment from my perspective about what's been happening in these threads lately, and especially the blatant attempt at gaslighting a certain member directed at me, but I'll leave it at this shitty drawn thing that I made to explain what is happening to people everywhere these days.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Pretty sure it's directed at somebody else.
I really appreciate this, but this wasn't about you. You're definitely not the one gaslighting or sealioning others. So don't worry.
Spaldy
Ancient Mariner
So I've been debating to myself whether I should add any further comment from my perspective about what's been happening in these threads lately, and especially the blatant attempt at gaslighting a certain member directed at me, but I'll leave it at this shitty drawn thing that I made to explain what is happening to people everywhere these days.
Magnus
Pica Serdica
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Hm?
Edit: Never mind
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Magnus
Pica Serdica
Mate, I thought you'd see the obvious joke involving my avatar, my not too left views, and the exchanges we've had. Never mind.Hm? I was talking about the AFD as the "elephant in the room" that needs to be addressed. The AFD is fascist and pushes for blatantly unconstitutional policies. If it sounds like a neonazi and goose steps like a neonazi (and if the courts have ruled that prominent AFD politicians can be called fascists and nazis) then it very likely is a neonazi, right?
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Genuinely didn't look at the avatar at all, so that flew over my head lol
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
What a time to be alive, flying elephants in the European Politics thread!
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Marine Le Pen barred from running for French presidency in 2027
Far-right leader found guilty of embezzlement of European funds and immediately barred from running for office
www.theguardian.com
Marine Le Pen barred from running for French presidency in 2027
Far-right leader found guilty of embezzlement of European funds and immediately barred from running for office
Regardless of what I personally think of it, this is going to make a lot on the far right very angry. And unlike Liberals, it's not funny when the far-right is angry.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Agreed. This has made the usual suspects bark/hee-haw.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
Ah, I didn't unfollow this thread (how many to go?). Well, here we go.
I see a different problem, which has nothing to do with political leaning (regardless of what people probably make of me, I do not wish far-right getting to power, not more and not less than I wish far-left getting to power - I just wish the mainstream political parties didn't push people to far-right support as much as they do currently, but whatever).
The point being - a severe fine, prison sentence, that's okay, but I don't think barring from running for office is a good and commendable thing to do in democracy (apart from maybe the cases of treason or outright performed attempts at dismantling the political system or other such conduct). I do find it inherently un-democratic (and I say that as a monarchist first and foremost) and I do find it a dangerous precedent, especially as we can see outlawing and barring from office of the opposition in Russia, Belarus and other places. I mean, especially with Russia and Putin regime, my country has this very close relationship with any type of Russian opposition (and we are one of the staunchest supporters of Ukraine as well - all because we have the experience with Russia that seems to be... untranslatable, at least when I'm speaking to Americans, for example) and erasing someone from the political race for ... dunno, economic criminal activity is kind of a thin ice for me/us and something very easily abusable.
I have read several people (even those of a much more progressive mindset than I have, so it's not just my "latent fascism" or something) commenting upon this just today.
Maybe you think such thing is okay, but I just wish people didn't rejoice just because they dislike the politician/party and that I could be sure that they would think so even if it was a politician that they agreed with. I disagree with this type of punishment and would disagree even if it was a politician from my party, from party opposing, from far-right, far.left, far centre and so on. If you celebrate this, you should celebrate it as a principle and make your own argument why and how do you think it is compatible with democracy.
If the majority of voters of a country would vote for someone currently sitting in prison, then there is a much deeper problem, either with the system that put such person in prison or with the majority of voters who would vote for a criminal, but you won't "save" this by cherrypicking and imprisoning potential candidates that the court deems reprehensible enough not to be allowed to run. Because where are the guidelines for this? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
(I say this as someone whose country had only a short time of freedom in the 20s and 30s, when we were indeed policing everyone and barring far-left and far-right as anti-systemic and it worked... until it very much didn't. In general, I'd say the 20th century history of Czechia/Czechoslovakia is a valuable resource in historic experience, not always applicable, but always enlightening, IMHO.)
---
Besides that, I don't follow French poltics as closely, but wikipedia itself says, she was (before the disqualification) the most promising candidate for the next presidential election? Really? WTF?
So, well, she's gone, but what's there to celebrate? Do you think that suddenly the support for the far-right will disappear?
Cause unless we'll start taking this stuff seriously, maybe the next president won't be far-right, because of this court ruling, but the next one will definitely be.
I remember Marine Le Pen as the upstart daughter of Jean-Marie Le Pen, as someone from the fringes, a prominent face from an obscure minority, as someone who's not taken seriously. And now she was to be among the most likely winners of the presidential election? Isn't that outrageous? And if that is so, then why is that so? What are all the "good guys" missing? And shouldn't we start doing something about that? I really don't want Okamura as my prime minister or the president and his support is more or less stable (people are more enticed by the Slovakian Berlusconi and - what do you know? Also an embezzler. And he's gonna be our next prime minister. Hooray!). Shouldn't we ask why is this happening?
(People say that war on drugs is nonsensical, because throwing down one dealer just makes two other spring up in his place, as long as there is demand, there's going to be supply. What's the difference here?)
I see a different problem, which has nothing to do with political leaning (regardless of what people probably make of me, I do not wish far-right getting to power, not more and not less than I wish far-left getting to power - I just wish the mainstream political parties didn't push people to far-right support as much as they do currently, but whatever).
The point being - a severe fine, prison sentence, that's okay, but I don't think barring from running for office is a good and commendable thing to do in democracy (apart from maybe the cases of treason or outright performed attempts at dismantling the political system or other such conduct). I do find it inherently un-democratic (and I say that as a monarchist first and foremost) and I do find it a dangerous precedent, especially as we can see outlawing and barring from office of the opposition in Russia, Belarus and other places. I mean, especially with Russia and Putin regime, my country has this very close relationship with any type of Russian opposition (and we are one of the staunchest supporters of Ukraine as well - all because we have the experience with Russia that seems to be... untranslatable, at least when I'm speaking to Americans, for example) and erasing someone from the political race for ... dunno, economic criminal activity is kind of a thin ice for me/us and something very easily abusable.
I have read several people (even those of a much more progressive mindset than I have, so it's not just my "latent fascism" or something) commenting upon this just today.
Maybe you think such thing is okay, but I just wish people didn't rejoice just because they dislike the politician/party and that I could be sure that they would think so even if it was a politician that they agreed with. I disagree with this type of punishment and would disagree even if it was a politician from my party, from party opposing, from far-right, far.left, far centre and so on. If you celebrate this, you should celebrate it as a principle and make your own argument why and how do you think it is compatible with democracy.
If the majority of voters of a country would vote for someone currently sitting in prison, then there is a much deeper problem, either with the system that put such person in prison or with the majority of voters who would vote for a criminal, but you won't "save" this by cherrypicking and imprisoning potential candidates that the court deems reprehensible enough not to be allowed to run. Because where are the guidelines for this? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
(I say this as someone whose country had only a short time of freedom in the 20s and 30s, when we were indeed policing everyone and barring far-left and far-right as anti-systemic and it worked... until it very much didn't. In general, I'd say the 20th century history of Czechia/Czechoslovakia is a valuable resource in historic experience, not always applicable, but always enlightening, IMHO.)
---
Besides that, I don't follow French poltics as closely, but wikipedia itself says, she was (before the disqualification) the most promising candidate for the next presidential election? Really? WTF?
So, well, she's gone, but what's there to celebrate? Do you think that suddenly the support for the far-right will disappear?
Cause unless we'll start taking this stuff seriously, maybe the next president won't be far-right, because of this court ruling, but the next one will definitely be.
I remember Marine Le Pen as the upstart daughter of Jean-Marie Le Pen, as someone from the fringes, a prominent face from an obscure minority, as someone who's not taken seriously. And now she was to be among the most likely winners of the presidential election? Isn't that outrageous? And if that is so, then why is that so? What are all the "good guys" missing? And shouldn't we start doing something about that? I really don't want Okamura as my prime minister or the president and his support is more or less stable (people are more enticed by the Slovakian Berlusconi and - what do you know? Also an embezzler. And he's gonna be our next prime minister. Hooray!). Shouldn't we ask why is this happening?
(People say that war on drugs is nonsensical, because throwing down one dealer just makes two other spring up in his place, as long as there is demand, there's going to be supply. What's the difference here?)
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____no5
Free Man
I'm afraid there is a pattern here, yesterday Romania, today France, tomorrow Hungary, Moldova & Germany. We should be all worry not because far-right will get angry but because our Democracy goes to trash-bin. US wants to take on China and needs Europe to take on Russia. Whoever is not 100% on board for war is target. "Give me the man and I will give you the case against him".
I believe it will happen again and again. Wait and see.
To be clear I don't say she didn't do it, I say she's been targeted in order to not run. She should know better, but that doesn't make it less ugly.