CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
But in respect to these questions you ask, I don't know. It depends how you factor in oil revenue:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266
European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
You're not making any sense. If they're rhetorical questions, am I to interpret that as meaning you don't require an answer to these questions, as the answer(s) are self evident? Scotland "has all of these" --all of what? Are you saying these are facts?
You were saying that Scotland was not performing well economically. I answered with stating facts clad in a rhetorical question, trying to provoke you into an answer to explain your previous statements.
The highest per capita income, both the highest total and per capita GDP, the highest GDP growth and the highest per capita GVA in the UK.
Yes. I only got them from Wikipedia, but they were all referenced, and I'm just taking that as good enough for my argument.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Perun, I didn't say this. You're putting words into my mouth. Your direct comparison (which I was responding to) was with regions (in Italy & Spain) that feel & know they are economically more productive than other parts of the country they belong to. And, furthermore, that they resent this i.e. having to "aid poorer regions" (your words). Just to make it clear, if I didn't before: nobody in Scotland thinks like this, or comes from this perspective. This was my point. This is where you err in your comparison. We don't feel like this, mainly, because we do not appear to be wealthier than poor old England, or Wales (or N.I.). In addition to this we are (as is widely reported) sometimes accused of being subsidised by the rest of the UK i.e. the exact opposite view one would take, taking your facts. Why would the rest of the UK maintain this view, do you think?
I admit I was making an assumption based on the observation of other areas; if you tell me I'm wrong, fine, I believe you. The whole reason why I was joining this discussion was because I wanted to learn about the matter.
That still leaves my question about rational arguments for Scottish independence open, though.
That still leaves my question about rational arguments for Scottish independence open, though.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
The argument goes that Scotland wants to make its own decisions (in regard to a great many things) & is at present unable to (fully). That's pretty much it.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
The E.U., immigration policy, social policy (the welfare state), foreign policy, political leaning (generally), the nature of politics (in our parliament) --off the top of my head. We already have a separate legal system, different education system, & devolved health (NHS). It just doesn't make much sense not having full control of all of these. Devolution has delivered quite a lot, but, clearly, not everything in the eyes of nationalists.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Right now I am not coming much further than what Brigantium said and I also want to learn more of this discussion.
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what I want
So do I understand it well that because there are already so many differences, it is more practical to become less dependent from each other?
And I know what I want
When the timing is right
Then I'll take what I want
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Speaking of independence. Today it was exactly 200 years ago that the Netherlands regained independence from France.
(wiki):
After Napoleon's defeat at Leipzig (October 1813), the French troops retreated to France from all over Europe. The Netherlands had been annexed to the French Empire by Napoleon in 1810. But now city after city was evacuated by the French occupation troops. In the power vacuum that this created a number of former Orangist politicians and former Patriots formed a provisional government in November 1813. Although a large number of the members of the provisional government had helped drive out William V 18 years earlier, it was taken for granted that his son would have to head any new regime. They also agreed it would be better in the long term for the Dutch to restore him themselves, rather than have the Great Powers impose him on the country. The Dutch population was pleased with the departure of the French, who had ruined the Dutch economy, and this time welcomed the prince.
After having been invited by the Driemanschap (Triumvirate) of 1813, on 30 November 1813 William disembarked HMS Warrior and landed at Scheveningen beach, only a few yards from the place where he had left the country with his father 18 years previously, and on 6 December the provisional government offered him the title of King. William refused, instead proclaiming himself "sovereign prince". He also wanted the rights of the people to be guaranteed by "a wise constitution".
The constitution offered William extensive (almost absolute) powers. Ministers were only responsible to him, while a unicameral parliament (the States-General) exercised only limited power. He was inaugurated as sovereign prince in the New Church in Amsterdam. In August 1814, he was appointed Governor-General of the former Austrian Netherlands by the Allied Powers who occupied that country. He was also made Grand Duke of Luxembourg, having received that territory in return for trading his hereditary German lands to Prussia and the Duke of Nassau. William thus fulfilled his family's three-century dream of uniting the Low Countries.
Feeling threatened by Napoleon, who had escaped from Elba, William proclaimed the Netherlands a kingdom on 16 March 1815 at the urging of the powers gathered at the Congress of Vienna. His son, the future king William II, fought as a commander at the Battle of Waterloo. After Napoleon had been sent into exile, William adopted a new constitution which included much of the old constitution, such as extensive royal powers. He was confirmed as hereditary ruler of what was known as the United Kingdom of the Netherlands at the Congress of Vienna.
(wiki):
After Napoleon's defeat at Leipzig (October 1813), the French troops retreated to France from all over Europe. The Netherlands had been annexed to the French Empire by Napoleon in 1810. But now city after city was evacuated by the French occupation troops. In the power vacuum that this created a number of former Orangist politicians and former Patriots formed a provisional government in November 1813. Although a large number of the members of the provisional government had helped drive out William V 18 years earlier, it was taken for granted that his son would have to head any new regime. They also agreed it would be better in the long term for the Dutch to restore him themselves, rather than have the Great Powers impose him on the country. The Dutch population was pleased with the departure of the French, who had ruined the Dutch economy, and this time welcomed the prince.
After having been invited by the Driemanschap (Triumvirate) of 1813, on 30 November 1813 William disembarked HMS Warrior and landed at Scheveningen beach, only a few yards from the place where he had left the country with his father 18 years previously, and on 6 December the provisional government offered him the title of King. William refused, instead proclaiming himself "sovereign prince". He also wanted the rights of the people to be guaranteed by "a wise constitution".
The constitution offered William extensive (almost absolute) powers. Ministers were only responsible to him, while a unicameral parliament (the States-General) exercised only limited power. He was inaugurated as sovereign prince in the New Church in Amsterdam. In August 1814, he was appointed Governor-General of the former Austrian Netherlands by the Allied Powers who occupied that country. He was also made Grand Duke of Luxembourg, having received that territory in return for trading his hereditary German lands to Prussia and the Duke of Nassau. William thus fulfilled his family's three-century dream of uniting the Low Countries.
Feeling threatened by Napoleon, who had escaped from Elba, William proclaimed the Netherlands a kingdom on 16 March 1815 at the urging of the powers gathered at the Congress of Vienna. His son, the future king William II, fought as a commander at the Battle of Waterloo. After Napoleon had been sent into exile, William adopted a new constitution which included much of the old constitution, such as extensive royal powers. He was confirmed as hereditary ruler of what was known as the United Kingdom of the Netherlands at the Congress of Vienna.
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Well, you know. France kinda kicked the shit out of everyone for awhile there. Don't get all down about it.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
The Napoleonic Wars also caused an event that will be remembered thoroughly in Norway next year; the dissolution of the union with Denmark, the 1814 Constitution and the subsequent union with Sweden. 1814 was an eventful year in Norwegian history ...
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
Your people just got tossed around from one kingdom to another. 
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Your people just got tossed around from one kingdom to another.
Not really. Due to several factors, the union with Sweden was one where the two were much more equal than the situation had been with the previous one. There was a desire from Sweden to make Norway more or less a colony, but the resistance to that was so strong the Swedes would have to start another full-scale war to make it happen. Neither themselves nor the big powers of Europe wanted that.
Norway declared itself independent, appointed Christian Frederick as king, and made its own Constitution in May. Hostilities followed in the summer, and these hostilities forced negotiations between the governments of Norway and Sweden. Norway accepted to enter the union, Sweden accepted that Norway's constitution would stand and that Norway would have an independent domestic administration. The only things that were shared were the King himself and the foreign services. For example, Norway completed the transition to parliamentarism during the union, whereas Sweden did not until after WW1.
The Wikipedia article simplifies a bit here and there, but serves as a good introduction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_in_1814
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25172778
Sadly, I think the results would be even worse if this was done in Serbia. Or Montenegro. Stupid Balkans.
Sadly, I think the results would be even worse if this was done in Serbia. Or Montenegro. Stupid Balkans.
Didn't Croatia just join the EU?
Yes.