European Politics

The thing that annoys me the most, about the current debate, is the constant suggestion that the SNP don't have the answer(s) to questions... that don't have answers i.e. that will be determined by negotiation. The UK government doesn't know the answer(s) to these questions either, at this stage. It doesn't matter. I don't see anyone asking George Osborne what he might do if all the North Sea Tax revenue is suddenly not there anymore i.e. how would he budget (in England/UK) for this shortfall? Or what if Scotland does not agree to a transfer of debt? (There is no rule book saying how this happens.) Where are his answers? Funny how nobody's talking about this.
 
Good point. These are scaremongering discussions that should not distract from the main issue: What are the real reasons why a Scot would like to be independent or not?

I wouldn't worry about EU membership. Even if that would not happen automatically, I am sure it will be no problem to become a member (again).
 
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That is what the politicians opposing the independence say. And the fact that Spain wants to discourages those movements says a lot about Spain and it increases my understanding for the desire to become independent.

There are also people who say this (wiki):

Former European Court judge, Professor Sir David Edward, argued in a December 2012 paper that both Barroso and the SNP were incorrect. Given the situation would be unprecedented and the absence of any express provision in existing EU treaties on how to handle the situation, he stressed the "obligations of good faith, sincere cooperation and solidarity" in the EU treaties, arguing that lengthy negotiations would have to take place but that these would do so prior to the date of independence and that they would lead to a treaty amendment rather than an accession treaty.

Roland Vaubel, a member of the Advisory Council to the German Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology, published a paper in May 2013 titled The Political Economy of Secession in the European Union, which stated that Scotland would remain a member of the European Union upon independence. The paper suggested that there would need to be a negotiation between the Scottish Government and the British Government on "how they wished to share the rights and obligations of the predecessor state". Vaubel also stated that Barosso's comments on the status of Scotland after independence "has no basis in the European treaties".

Professor Lars Bo Kaspersen, Head of Political Science at the University of Copenhagen, said that he believed independence "could be a fairly quick transition". He continued: "I'm sure that the European Union in general would strongly support Scottish membership and the same goes for NATO. I can’t think of anyone who wouldn't think it was a good idea."


(This last professor is obviously wrong with his last sentence, but I don't think Spain alone can stop all this)
 
Black Wizard said:
Spain could veto it to discourage the Catalan and Basque independence movements.
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I also doubt that Italy and France would be much in favour of an independent Scotland in the EU, for similar reasons.

In fact, the Italian example is what makes it so very difficult for me to even sympathise with the Scottish nationalists. In Italy, there is a movement for an independent Padania, which is the northern part of the country. It has its own influential political party, the Lega Nord. If you consider that their anthem is the choir of prisoners from Nabucco, you get a bit of an idea what their self-perception is: they consider themselves slaves, because being the wealthiest part of the country, and in fact one of the wealthiest parts of the world, they have to show solidarity and aid the poorer regions. So the reason they want independence from the rest of Italy is because they only care for themselves and don't mind if the rest of the country rots away. It's not much different in Catalonia, which is the powerhouse of Spain. Something tells me that if Scotland was in a less privileged position, like Wales, the SNP wouldn't have much of an influence.

I wouldn't mind being shown wrong about Scotland, so if anybody can provide me with a list of reasons for Scottish independence that goes beyond nationalist ideology, I'd be happy to see it.
 
Flanders in Belgium is another example (wealthier than Wallonia).

It depends on how do we define nationalist ideology. Every part that wants to break free has a certain history, so it's hard to completely set it apart.

How do you mean Scotland is in a more privileged position than Wales? Oil?

Scotland being independent from the UK has practical benefits. I thought that there is a difficult construction politically (parliaments, votes etc), you often hear complaints from both directions how Scotland can decide on English matters and vice versa.
 
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National ideology is also a main force against separation. Countries (UK, Spain, Italy) don't want to get smaller, and loose power.
 
Moving rule away from Westminster would be a reason. As it is, some of us in England feel Government policy is too focused on London and the South East. (Although that's not a surprise, as its the economic centre.)
 
Forostar said:
Every part that wants to break free has a certain history, so it's hard to completely set it apart.
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Arguing with history is usually a deeply ideological affair, and I think that in matters such as this, it should come at the very end, if it should be done at all.

How do you mean Scotland is in a more privileged position than Wales? Oil?
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It is wealthy, it is performing well economically, and it has major urban centres with longstanding industry.

Scotland being independent from the UK has practical benefits.
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Which ones? That was my question to begin with.
 
There are many subtle territorial problems in Europe.

The huge economic crisis in Europe is just the fuel-in-the-engine. Maybe as it always was??
 
Perun, you talk more sense on this forum that anyone --but your post a few back is one of the most uninformed utterances I've ever seen you post here. Scotland is in exactly the opposite position to these regions. All the wealth & power in the UK is polarized in the South-east of England, not in the north of the country (inc. Scotland).
Perun said:
Something tells me that if Scotland was in a less privileged position, like Wales, the SNP wouldn't have much of an influence.
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Seriously, what are you talking about here? The comparison is totally irrelevant. (Aside from the fact that poverty in Scotland is as bad as anything in Wales.)
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Perun, you talk more sense on this forum that anyone --but your post a few back is one of the most uninformed utterances I've ever seen you post here. Scotland is in exactly the opposite position to these regions. All the wealth & power in the UK is polarized in the South-east of England, not in the north of the country (inc. Scotland).
Seriously, what are you talking about here? The comparison is totally irrelevant. (Aside from the fact that poverty in Scotland is as bad as anything in Wales.)
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Does Scotland not have the highest average per capita income, GDP both in total and per capita, highest GDP growth and GVA per capita of the United Kingdom? Scotland has a higher per capita GDP than Germany, which is considered one of the highest developed economies in the world! Do Cardiff or Swansea compare in any way industrially or economically to Edinburgh and Glasgow?

I'm fully aware that all the wealth and power of the UK is concentrated in the London area, but as a country in its entirety, I would say Scotland is doing far better than England.

Forostar said:
Cried, would you then in turn, answer his question from your perspective:
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Given that you are one of the greatest supporters of Scottish independence here, I was hoping you would answer my question, too.

CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Depends what you (or Perun) define "nationalist ideology" as...
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Just give me a list of reasons, then.
 
If you look at the quote I was replying to there, that was from a post written by Forostar.
 
I don't like speaking for other people, but yes, yes he is.
 
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