European Politics

Forostar

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
I can't find the old topic (must be pretty old).

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How to punish member states ?


I don't think a country can be kicked out that easily. One option might be to dismiss a country's "voting right" in the European Parliament.

This question will be actual soon, since the following news came out last week:

'Massive and Systematic Violations' of Human Rights'
By Marcel Rosenbach and John Goetz

In his second report for the Council of Europe, special investigator Dick Marty will say that he has "enough evidence to state" that the CIA operated secret prisons in Poland and Romania. SPIEGEL ONLINE has obtained a copy of the report, which is due for release this afternoon. It documents a "series of illegal acts" on the part of the CIA.

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Read the complete article here:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 25,00.html
 
Re: European Union

Somewhat off-topic: I am now in the belief that Poland should be expelled from the Union. Not because I don't like the people or the country -I like Poland a lot, believe me-, but because the government is actively making politics against the EU. Just watch what is happening in Brussles right now. Every member, even France and The Netherlands, are working on a new compromise for a constitution. The Polish government is strictly against that concept and does its best to not make it happen. That's one against 24. It's not fair that one government out of 25 can stop a process that everyone else is in favour of. I think the time has come for Brussles to stand up and say- "fine. You don't like it? Piss off!" I hope for the country and the people that they will soon get a government that knows what's good for it and is not based on the power being shared by twin brothers (that look like cloned potatoes) who want to destroy the basic democratic order and act against fundamental principles of the European Union.

However, somewhere in this collection of treaties and guidelines that makes up the legal base for the EU, there are directions that forbid a member to be expelled or to leave.

On topic, I don't think that the CIA prisons themselves are a valid argument for a member to be expelled. Punished, yes. But expelled, no. Allegedly, even the German government knew of those prisons and did nothing against them.
 
Re: European Union

Perun said:
I am now in the belief that Poland should be expelled from the Union.
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I think exactly the same thing since 2004

*off topic*
I find it a terrible mistake to make enter 10 new countries so bloody quick.
The only exceptions are Malte and Cyprus, but the others....
Even if like very much some of the new countries (like Czech Republic)
...not to speak for the very new countries like Bulgaria who already give massively fake Euporean passports
with a tarif of some 300€
 
Re: European Union

A lot of people think that things always went crap in Poland. But honestly, things went downhill after the installment of the last government, which came after they joined the EU.
 
Re: European Union

Forostar said:
A lot of people think that things always went crap in Poland. But honestly, things went downhill after the installment of the last government, which came after they joined the EU.
Click to expand...

I was terribly schocked when I saw Poland contrary to the most European countries want to send troops to Iraq
It had just entered to EU, but yet went so easily to the other side ...Now, I don't know if this desicion was made from the new or from the old goverment, but I really didn't like it

US is very happy with the entrance of such countries in EU as they help in its political destabilization

This last maybe is the answer to your quote as Poland is between two sides : US and EU
 
Re: European Union

One of my main issues with the whole union is that it seems to be such a hurry to get new countries in. Some of the countries have a standard of living equivalent of the 1950s in the "older" member countries. And who's going to have to pay subsidies and rebuild the infrastructure and so on and so forth? Will French farmers agree to reduce their agricultural subsidies in favour of Poland or Latvia? I think not. The result is massive increases in payments from the likes of Sweden, UK, Germany, Spain, France, Italy etc. I believe the main outcome of this will be a massive popular anti-EU current throughout western Europe.

On another note: I'm not up to date on Turkey's entry into the union, but last I heard the Swedish government being all for Turkey being fast-tracked, which surprises me since just a year ago the talk was still that as long as Turkey won't stop infringing human rights they're not eligible to become members. Has something happened here or is it similar to everything else? As soon as public debate dies, kill the issues and barter with the values?

*sigh* I voted yes to a Swedish membership in the referendum in the 90s, but I'm not so sure it's such a great idea, anymore. Too many iffy issues that are being dealt with in a really iffy way.
I think a Nordic/Scandinavian union would be far better - Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Finland. But what do I know, I just admitted to being stupid, in another post ::)
 
Re: European Union

Perun said:
...

However, somewhere in this collection of treaties and guidelines that makes up the legal base for the EU, there are directions that forbid a member to be expelled or to leave.

...
Click to expand...

It would be very sad if the guidelines do not allow for punishment or even legal expulsion of transgressing EU members.  The latter (if it exists at all) should be used only if punishement does not change behaviour.  There must be a set of consequences, otherwise everyone will suck the EU for its benefits and not give anything in return.  Sadly, I'd hate to be a cynic, but there will be many more governments that try to do just that, i.e. nations that do not comply to (any or some) human rights standards, yet expect economic benefits.

@ Forostar: I have not heard of the CIA working secretly in Poland or Romania, but it does not surprize me.  If they can have Guantanamo Prisons, why not European ones.  At one point, Croatia was asked if they were willing to provide one of their islands for an American military base, and the government flatly refused.  Basically, many nations are bending over backwards because they feel USA is instrumental in ending communism, (as mentioned by other members).  The irony is that the EU was partially created to offset American global power.
 
Re: European Union

I agree with Anomica on this one...contrary to those smiling ministers in the news I was displeased with such hasty acceptance of eastern European countries into the EU who are several decades behind western Europe. Ok, I understand that joining the EU would help these countries to develop faster, but the problem is that 'rich' countries then have to bear the brunt of the costs which leads to people in these countries disliking the EU. I also am under the impression that many of these eastern European countries have some way to go in human rights and democracy. Oh and going along with Perun I think Poland shouldn't be a member. And neither should several other eastern European countries (ahem, and what is with the discussions with Serbia about joining? Just no).
 
Re: European Union

Compromises are happening on a greater scale.  The more countries get in, the more the EU will compromise on new members it seems.  I don't know what the current human rights record is in countries such as Bulgaria, Romania and all the newcomers, but there were way to many that joined at once this year.  I think the key reason this is happening is to prevent future wars and conflicts, in my view.  The more interdependent countries are, the less likely they are to start wars.  Unfortunately, compromise on human rights is the result.
 
Re: European Union

Genghis Khan said:
The more interdependent countries are, the less likely they are to start wars.  Unfortunately, compromise on human rights is the result.
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Peace at any cost...I'm not sure I like that idea. And the EU is more and more starting to look like a social welfare office for the eastern European countries, such as Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia and so on. I think the people will turn hostile towards the EU more and more if this goes on.
 
Re: European Union

Speak for yourself, Swede! ;)

People who don't care for Eastern European countries might not like a bigger Union indeed.
Others might have less problems. It's a complicated topic with many aspects, pro's and con's.
 
Re: European Union

A line from a song by Stiff Little Fingers (Silver Lining):

"The world has money enough for us to make it go around."

If countries need a little welfare help from the so called richer countries, it should not be too much of an issue - but it is for most. A lot of people have the attitude that "charity begins at home" - which is fine to a degree, but when we sit in nice cosy houses, with plenty of food to it and so on, it's easy to suggest that problems in some poor Eastern European country is not our problem - don't let them in the EU and it's less of our problem.
 
Re: European Union

In an attempt to piss less people off, I edited:

Indeed Albie. I have seen some "double" views on this forum. Some shrug when we talk about human rights in those countries and within the day they tell that those same countries should not belong to the EU. Quite contradictionary, if you ask me.


I'd say, care for both issues or ignore both issues.
 
Re: European Union

Forostar said:
Indeed Albie. I have seen some doublefaced people on this forum. They shrug when we talk about human rights in those countries and within the day they tell that those same countries should not belong to the EU. Hypocrite or at least contradictionary.  -_-
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I hope you're not referring to me...
 
Re: European Union

Forostar, I'm speaking as a native English speaker, and to call someone "doublefaced" is far more insiduous than to call them "hypocritical".  It's very insulting and you might inadvertadly piss someone off when instead you are attempting to call into attention someone's faults.
 
Re: European Union

Perun said:
I hope you're not referring to me...
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Absolutely not Perun, you showed that you care for people who are oppressed by their own governments.

LC, would you explain the difference between those terms for me?
 
Re: European Union

Doublefaced is similar to twofaced, and involves a certain intended duplicity to the word which I'm sure you didn't mean.
 
Re: European Union

I must clarify that I did not mean to insinuate any wrong doings of people on this forum and I meant "we" as a general view of people of these "rich developed nations" - if you see what I mean. :)

Forostar said:
Absolutely not Perun, you showed that you care for people who are oppressed by their own governments.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with that.
 
Re: European Union

Most of my friends are anti-EU and I was merely reiterating the arguments they throw at me constantly. Call it a test balloon ;) I believe that by reducing the differencies in economic standard and standard of living between Eastern and Western European countries we make for a more peaceful and equal union, which is a good thing. The problem lies with the politicians changing their minds without any obvious reasons and suddenly wanting to do something they were opposed to 6 or 12 months earlier. That confuses the issues in people's minds.
 
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