European Politics

Re: European Union

Forostar said:
Indeed Albie. I have seen some "double" views on this forum. Some shrug when we talk about human rights in those countries and within the day they tell that those same countries should not belong to the EU. Quite contradictionary, if you ask me.


I'd say, care for both issues or ignore both issues.

*shrugs*...:innocent:

It's not that I don't care about human rights in Poland, it's just that the issue in hand was about banning teletubbies...and that the human rights situation in a country can't be assessed by some politician lady who thinks a witless kids program should be banned (and gives a controversial reason for it). For all we know she just has a personal vengeance thing against gay people.

And this whole gay rights thing was not the reason why I think Perun has a point about kicking Poland out of the EU. Its because of the whole EU constitution mess Poland is creating which Perun posted about earlier.
 
Re: European Union

Anomica said:
Most of my friends are anti-EU and I was merely reiterating the arguments they throw at me constantly.
I know a lot of anti EU folk as well, but if their reasoning is that they don't want to foot the bill to help develop a seriously underdeveloped country it's not such a good argument. :)

Anomica said:
The problem lies with the politicians changing their minds without any obvious reasons and suddenly wanting to do something they were opposed to 6 or 12 months earlier. That confuses the issues in people's minds.
Very true, this is where the cynicism of the people comes from.
 
Re: European Union

@Natalie, I'm telling you honestly that I think you relativize those human rights problems in almost every post of yours. I might have understood your last post in a wrong way, but it isn't just one woman in Poland, the whole government thinks like that.

Big chance Poland won't be kicked out of the Union, but if they will, then it couldl be because of the illigal camps.
And uhh, Poland is not the only country which has problems with the European constitution.  :innocent:
 
Re: European Union

As I just wrote in the Teletubbies thread I don't understand where the argument 'the whole government thinks like that' is coming from. Apparently you know more than I do (not hard btw), but if you would provide some sort of article thingy it would be nice...:innocent:....

Honestly though, I want to learn more about the human rights issue in Poland (something which isn't covered greatly in Austrian news it seems) and I'm sorry if my posts have seemed rather dismissive of Poland and human rights problems there.
 
Re: European Union

No problem Natalie, all accepted.
I can understand that the news in Austria might broadcast news differently. When all this becomes actual again, I'll provide (a) link(s). :)
 
Re: European Union

"No talk of a constitution"
18 June 2007

LUXEMBOURG – The term constitution and all the symbols that refer to a European super-state have been practically dropped from the discussion, Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen said on Sunday after meeting with the other EU foreign ministers in Luxembourg.

"It looks as if agreement will be possible at the EU summit at the end of this week on the fact that a constitution is no longer up for discussion, but a traditional treaty to bring about certain changes. And we have also agreed that the symbols that refer to a EU super-state are also out of the picture," Verhagen said.

This satisfies two important demands from the Dutch government. Before the meeting Verhagen had already said that the Dutch cabinet was "absolutely opposed to a constitution."

The question now however is what will happen during the negotiations between the EU leaders this Thursday and Friday.

The Netherlands has succeeded in getting rid of the name and symbols of the constitution, but that does not mean that the contents of a new treaty will meet the demands set by the Netherlands.

For instance the Netherlands also wants the Charter of Fundamental Rights scrapped from the text of the EU treaty. But there is still disagreement on this point among EU members.

The Netherlands can accept replacing the Charter with an article that refers to the Charter, but the British do not want even that. Other countries say that the British standpoint on this matter is "unacceptable."

Another Dutch wish is to give national parliaments more opportunities to block proposals from the European Commission using a so-called red card procedure. But the chance of this being included is slim.



meanwhile:


The Czech Republic offered Poland an opportunity to climb down in talks on a new European Union treaty on Monday but it is unclear whether Warsaw is interested in a face-saving compromise at a summit this week.
Poland is demanding a change to the reformed voting system agreed in 2004 which it says would give big states, especially Germany, too much power mainly at Warsaw's expense.

A Polish veto would block progress on a treaty for reforming creaking institutions designed half a century ago for a community one-quarter the size of today's enlarged 27-nation EU.

Polish Foreign Minister Anna Fotyga said Warsaw had received signals of a possible compromise but told reporters: "I want to say explicitly that for Poland to accept the voting system in the European constitution is not a compromise."

Diplomats said Germany could offer Poland a delay in introducing the voting system as a last-minute gambit to clinch a deal, but there was no sign Warsaw would accept.

Only the Czechs have lent Poland half-hearted support, while the other 25 member states insist the voting reform must stay in the mandate for a new treaty, due to be approved by EU leaders at a Brussels summit on Thursday and Friday.

At an EU foreign ministers' meeting in Luxembourg, Czech Deputy Prime Minister Alexandr Vondra said Prague wanted to help find a compromise between Poland and Germany, which holds the EU presidency.

"As a country in Central Europe, we see Poland as a very important country. We definitely don't want to see Poland isolated," Vondra said.

In London, British Prime Minister Tony Blair spelled out to a parliamentary committee his conditions for accepting a deal on a treaty to replace the European constitution rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005.

He said he would not agree to give Europe a greater say over Britain's judicial system or its tax and benefits arrangements.

Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski said after meeting central European colleagues in Bratislava he hoped Poland would not have to use its veto, but he insisted it would defend demands for re-weighting the EU voting system.

"I hope we will not have to use the last resort, a veto. I hope we will be able to find a compromise," Kaczynski told a news conference in the Slovak capital. But the mere mention of veto made clear a clash is a real possibility.

German government spokesman Ulrich Wilhelm said that while differences had narrowed on many points, "it's also clear that there are still some very serious problems to solve".

German Chancellor Angela Merkel failed to win over Polish President Lech Kaczynski, the prime minister's twin brother, in lengthy weekend talks, and ministers forecast a long, hot summit in Brussels probably spilling into a third day.

Vondra said he had cleared his schedule for Saturday and expected the summit to run into a third day. Wilhelm advised reporters to pack a third shirt.

Under the voting reform, most decisions would require the support of 55 percent of member states representing 65 percent of the population. Poland, which has less than half Germany's population, has proposed an alternative based on the square root of each country's population.

Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos said a compromise could involve "ways to improve" the double majority system.

The Polish delegation circulated a paper touting its alternative as an "Equal Influence System" and arguing that under the reformed voting system, the 14 poorest EU states would be unable to block any unwanted legislation.

Merkel stood firm on the voting rights question on a brief visit to Luxembourg on Sunday and refused to shelve the issue.

Britain and the Netherlands have set out other demands -- the former insisting a Charter of Fundamental Rights must not be legally binding on it, the latter seeking stronger powers for national parliaments to send back draft EU legislation.

Diplomats say both requests are legally tricky, as are British demands to limit the scope of EU foreign policy, but none was seen as a show-stopper, unlike the Polish problem.
 
Re: European Union

What baffles me is why a country such as the Netherlands which is normally thought of as a liberal country is so adamantly against an EU constitution. Does anybody know what this constitution would have entailed and what the difference is between a constitution and a treaty?

I'm not sure what to say about the voting reform. Wouldn't it be better to simply do everything in percentages, as in, if the majority of the people in the EU vote for a decision, then it should be undertaken, regardless of what countries these people are from?
 
Re: European Union

Natalie said:
What baffles me is why a country such as the Netherlands which is normally thought of as a liberal country is so adamantly against an EU constitution. Does anybody know what this constitution would have entailed and what the difference is between a constitution and a treaty?

That's a very good question. Our government says that the Dutch people do not want a EU as a super-state. So that's why we want to get rid of the symbolism. However, the substance of the whole thing is way more important, at least for me. I think that our government tries to find a balance between European and national wishes. Two years ago there was a big NO against the constitution, voiced at a referendum. To be honest, I think that this NO had a lot to do with anger at the previous government and the euro (a lot of Dutch hate the euro ;) ). Still our current government takes the NO very serious, which I respect, but I hope they are chosing the right route. Later this week it will be hard for the Dutch (as seen in that article) to have influence on the substance.
 
Re: European Union

Well, considering that the US$ is slipping and the Euro is holding pretty steady...it's a good currency, and the world will be doing their business in it before too long, I expect.  Hopefully Britain one day realizes what's good for it and tosses their lot in with the Euro.  It'd be better for all the business they do with the continent, and the world.  The pound is too high in value.

If the Dutch feel the time is right to move towards a "super-state" then it'll happen naturally.  People will partake in the democratic process and start contacting their government representatives, and writing letters to the editor, and all that good stuff.  The Constitution is going to take a few tries to pass anyway.  I just hope that they don't water it down like seems to be happening.  In my opinion that's the worst thing you can do.

It is time for the European Union to become a "super-state", in my opinion.  It'll mean changes, sure.  But one thing it won't mean is the loss of Europe as a centre of power anymore.  And it's the first step towards proving global governance can work.
 
Re: European Union

I prefer no super-state (of course it depends what the definition of a super-state is). Certains rules should be decided by Europe, but certain other rules should be decided by National parliaments.

About the euro --> It is not that popular, because it made products more expensive. At least, that's what a lot people think.
 
Re: European Union

Well, honestly, I envision a "super-state" as a unifying level of government that sets universal standards for controlling the Euro, standards of human rights (looking at you, Poland), the highest level of judicial appeal, and possibly makes some diplomatic decisions.  Definitely the EU should replace Britain, France, and Germany at the G-8, though they probably would hate that idea...
 
Re: European Union

LooseCannon said:
Definitely the EU should replace Britain, France, and Germany at the G-8, though they probably would hate that idea...
I'd give that little or no chance of happening. ;)

Forostar is right about the Euro making prices go up - or at least the suspicion of. I visited Greece just before and just after the switch - and to eat out suddenly became a bit more expensive. However, I am sort of in favour of Britain making it their currency - if only (from a personal point of view) to make a trip abroad a little easier without resorting to changing currency for country A, and then back again, only to find you have a load of shrapnel that you can't get rid of.
 
Re: European Union

LooseCannon said:
Well, honestly, I envision a "super-state" as a unifying level of government that sets universal standards for controlling the Euro, standards of human rights (looking at you, Poland), the highest level of judicial appeal, and possibly makes some diplomatic decisions. 

But those standards are not new, are they? There is a European Court, a European Bank and many European Commissions and politicians controlling all kinds of subjects. Diplomacy could be organized in a better way, and indeed every country should follow all the current rules, including those about human rights.

But the term "super-state" has a more negative feel, at least in my country.
 
Re: European Union

So the problem is with perception, not with the actual fact?  And the European Court really doesn't have much jurisdiction and the like, does it?  I'm discussing a legally binding court with supreme domination over the courts of the countries with the ability to make all the member states abide by a general constitution.  Somehow I don't think the Netherlands will lose their equal voice in the European Parliament.  Certainly they are still a military (at least naval) power.

When we discuss a European Constitution we are discussing a legally binding contract that sets the level for all member states.  Adherence to certain ideals and quid pro quos.  Agreements that nations will not attempt to weasel out of certain obligations or try to remove certain rights.
 
Re: European Union

Many people have a pessimistic perception indeed, they mistrust Europe. Also has to do with the fact that they think that "Brussels" shouldn't decide about everything to the slightest details. Often people say (inlduding the our previous Mininster of Finance: "Europe only costs us money". Very dumb and it didn't do the trust in Europe much good either.

In the fifties Europe was a  strong ideal, close after the war people were busy with the future, with progress and we needed eachother, working together to make it, to rebuild the countries. Now people are mainly busy with themselves.

If you like to know, two years ago I voted YES. :)

I'd like to have a strong Europe, but I am not sure if I'm gonna like every measurement taken by Europe.
Anyway, when I weigh the some positive aspects against some negatives, I'd say I'm rather for a European treaty.

Though, I didn't do much yet myself to get enough info. I will follow the Euro-top eagerly this week.
 
Re: European Union

LooseCannon said:
Well, honestly, I envision a "super-state" as a unifying level of government that sets universal standards for controlling the Euro, standards of human rights (looking at you, Poland), the highest level of judicial appeal, and possibly makes some diplomatic decisions.  Definitely the EU should replace Britain, France, and Germany at the G-8, though they probably would hate that idea...

Excellent notion and I second it. The only problem I think is nationalism. Small countries and even the bigger european ones will put forth the argument that they would lose their identity in one such 'super-state'. This is of course nonsense since the US works just fine and its all one big melting pot of cultures. Certainly Britain, Germany and France (or is it Italy?) would hate the idea of being replaced by the EU at the G8. But what all these rather small countries don't realize is that together they present a far more formidable force than when they act alone.
 
Re: European Union

It's not only a matter of identity, it's a matter of life and death!
;)

No seriously, I am afraid it's not that black and white. If someone would be against the EU constitution, it would be a bit quick to judge that he is a nationalist, isn't it? It depends on what the objections are.


Interesting artcicle about: Why the Netherlands said “no” in 2005.
source:
http://www.europesworld.org/EWSettings/ ... 4569dfb38e


The firmness of the Dutch "no" to the European Constitution came to many as a great surprise. How could one of the founding members of the European Communities, with such a solid record of integration and a presumed taste for "supranationalism", so rudely rebuff a European project?

The answer is less complicated than it might seem. For the Dutch have always resisted moves towards a stronger political union, particularly in the areas of foreign policy and defence. In a country with huge international commercial interests, "Europe" has essentially meant economic integration, based upon strong Community institutions and a firm Community legal order. The Dutch preference for "supranational" arrangements is restricted to the internal market and closely related fields like monetary affairs or the environment. In most other areas, including defence, foreign policy, judicial matters and police cooperation, intergovernmentalism is our preferred way of doing business in Europe.

In recent years, pragmatism has gradually gained the upper hand, even at the cost of the community method. A predominant role for the European Council in setting the priorities for the Union is now widely accepted, as is the need for flexibility and closer cooperation among a limited number of countries. The Dutch are also increasingly in favour of using informal cooperation techniques, such as "benchmarking", "open coordination" and "peer pressure" in economic areas such as the Lisbon process. In addition to the proper Community channels the government in The Hague, The Hague is intent on building up networks of bilateral cooperation with most of the other member states. Finally, the "national interest" is nowadays openly invoked whenever deemed necessary. This is particularly the case when it comes to the budget of the European Union, where the Dutch are in per capita terms the biggest net-contributors. Although the Dutch government considers enlargement an essential precondition for the stability and the prosperity of the continent, during the various rounds of treaty reform it has tried very hard, as the largest of the smaller member states, to defend its institutional "rights" in a much wider Union. At the same time, any federalist reference, still fatefully promoted during the run-up to the Maastricht treaty, was quietly relegated to the background.

Official reaction in Holland to the constitutional project had been very cool. Cabinet ministers called discussions about the final political structure of the Union "unrealistic" and "absurd". In their view, a wide-ranging debate about the future of the Union should not focus on "abstract concepts and remote vistas", but on "bread-and-butter issues" such as food safety, livelihoods, and security in the streets. Instead of a federal blueprint or a complete catalogue of competences, the Dutch would have preferred progress along charted routes, what we like to call an "evolutionary approach".

From that viewpoint the nation state remains the primary framework and reference-point for the organization of political life, including the democratic perspective. The government made it very clear that the member states should "remain the foundation of the European Union, now and in the future". This stance is supported by the major political parties, on both Left and Right, as well as by the general public.

But the EU's "unique" institutional structure, with its mix of intergovernmental and supranational elements, should also be preserved. "The successful Community method continues to be of the greatest importance to the process of European integration", government spokesmen have stressed. Yet it is not in favour of a significant further transfer of competences to the European level, either in existing or new policy sectors. If new policies are called for, these should be dealt with primarily in the national context, using the European Union only as a means for coordinating national positions and for setting broad guidelines. The Dutch government considers the European Constitution more as a refined codification of the existing treaties, and an improvement of decisionmaking procedures than as a new political and legal source for generating legislation.

Most analysts in the Netherlands share the view that if the Constitution had been simply presented as another round of treaty reform hardly anybody would have objected. The Dutch "no" should certainly not be taken as a sudden popular rejection of the EU. The process of European economic integration - including enlargement and the euro - is almost invisibly interwoven with Dutch society, and has long been taken for granted by a large majority of the Dutch population. But overzealous political interference from Brussels is resented, particularly in those fields (justice, police cooperation, fundamental rights) where the Dutch feel that their own constitutional arrangements are still better than the European ones. Hardly anybody in the Netherlands wants to put further European projects (enlargement, institutional and financial reform) on the backburner, but henceforth Dutch negotiators in Brussels will have to take more account of demands at home.
 
Re: European Union

Wait a second, are we talking about supernationalism or supranationalism?
 
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