Dream Theater

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I can understand and accept everything you say, Sir. I might disagree (my personal favourite period ever being SDOIT-ADTOE, after all), but that was what I wanted to hear. My previous comments were mostly about the false dichotomy of wankery/songwriting that has been thrown around quite freely not only here, but elsewhere on the net and which you did not use in that last post.

Of course, I will try to review and write down my own relationship to the various albums (including my deep love for ToT and 8um) as we'll approach those in the survivor, but you raised some interesting points there

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Black Bart said:
I think that what bothers me in the end with DT's evolution throughout the noughties is that they have tried to merge the band with Liquid Tension Experiment
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,
Black Bart said:
although DT's live career clearly gained momentum with Jordan Rudess (although the 1997-1998 years were, to me, very interesting), they have tried too hard on the studio side (4 albums between 2002 and 2007!!!)
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)

On the other hand, taking into consideration your top list of bands you posted today, you have been very forgiving in case of some other bands (latter day AC/DC, 'Tullica...) while you're being too strict with DT IMHO, but that's, like, your decision, man.
 
Wankery is anything that prioritizes technique over musicality for me. Most wanking material sounds like shit albeit impressive technically. DT is one of the few bands that can hit the occasional wanking that actually sounds good as well, but they have a lot of bad moments themselves.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
On the other hand, taking into consideration your top list of bands you posted today, you have been very forgiving in case of some other bands (latter day AC/DC, 'Tullica...) while you're being too strict with DT IMHO, but that's, like, your decision, man.
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It must have to do with how I function (and possibly other people too) in so far as I tend to be more forgiving with bands that established their greatness well before I discovered them (my musical education in hard/heavy music started in the years 1992-1993) compared to those I more or less followed when they were still developing. Not saying I'm right to do so -I can't really help it, it is not my "decision"- but it seems to be a distinct tendency.

However, as for the examples you take, I'm not forcing myself at all when I listen to Black Ice (Rock or Bust is I think not as good but still enjoyable) and Death Magnetic the way I did with Stiff Upper Lip and Saint Anger.

Considering the amount of records I barely listen to that these classic bands have released, I might have been a bit forgiving with Scorpions rather than those two bands! ;)
The Flash said:
Wankery is anything that prioritizes technique over musicality for me
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Totally, though the notion of "musicality" itself is rather subjective. Would it function with the word "melody" instead?
 
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Black Bart said:
However, as for the examples you take, I'm not forcing myself at all when I listen to Black Ice (Rock or Bust is I think not as good but still enjoyable) and Death Magnetic the way I did with Stiff Upper Lip and Saint Anger.
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Since we digress anyway... I love pretty much every Bon Scott album, but after Back in Black they could have called it quits and I wouldn't care. I admit Ice is somewhat tolerable and I sometimes give a spin to Hard as a Rock (nostalgia) or Moneytalks (sheer hilarity), but it just ain't for me overall. In fact, my favourite post-BiB Johnson track might be the semi-official Who Made Who, if you can believe it.

With Metallica, I like Ride->Justice and ReLoad. I don't say Magnetic for example isn't listenable, but it's definitely much worse in my book than any given DT album, for example :D
 
Recently I have grown to like not only WDADU, but also The Astonishing as well. I have been listening to it a lot the past two weeks or so. However, it's still a tad overlong and ballad heavy and so on. Since my wife feels that much more than me (she was complaining it's overlong and too plodding etc), I've decided to do some cuts.

In the end I have decided to do two personal tracklists. The first is... well, a "director's cut", so to speak. Two CDs/parts, some shuffling around (so the story is very non-linear, because I had to switch some songs even between the acts). In the end there are 22 songs and the length is 1 hour and 41 minutes. But the most important is the flow, which is now much better, I believe. I have repeatedly tried and deleted and tried and added until I was satisfied at last.

Part 1 / CD 1
1. Dystopian Overture
2. The Gift of Music
3. A Savior in the Square
4. When Your Time Has Come
5. Three Days
6. Act of Faythe
7. A Tempting Offer
8. The X Aspect
9. Heaven's Cove
10. A New Beginning
11. The Road to Revolution

Part 2 / CD 2
1. 2285 Entr'acte
2. Brother Can You Hear Me?
3. Ravenskill
4. Our New World
5. Chosen
6. Moment of Betrayal
7. The Walking Shadow
8. My Last Farewell
9. A Life Left Behind
10. Hymn of a Thousand Voices
11. The Astonishing

(At least my wife prefers it to the official version, so the hours put into it were not spent in vain :D )

The second (which I haven't finished yet) will be more like... either a suite or a multipart song, like SDOIT - I will concentrate less on the themes repeating within or even appearing at all and I'll try to push it down to around an hour... or at least a single CD. I will edit it here into this post when I'm done (probably not earlier than tomorrow, I'm still exhausted from creating and proof-hearing the first one).

Of course you're free to criticise and discuss it.

EDIT: Yes, I have changed it after the last relisten. Sorry.
 
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Might be, but I'm actually quite proud of this one - I am listening to it again and I really enjoy it more and more. Especially the second part/act, the sequence Ravenskill -> Our New World -> Chosen -> Moment of Betrayal -> The Walking Shadow is really cool, at least from the musical point of view.

Like I said, I'll try to shorten it even more, though I'm sure I'll use different tracks - in the second playlist there's going to be the title track in the end, instead of Brother, for example.
 
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Now that the album has been out a while, where does this compare to the rest of the albums in everyone else's opinion?

To me, it's second to last. Just above WDADU.
 
Well, I have very recently posted my updated list on the DTF that I thought was accurate...

JudasMyGuide said:
1. Systematic Chaos
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. A Dramatic Turn of Events
4. Train of Thought
5. Octavarium
6. Black Clouds and Silver Linings
7. Scenes from a Memory
8. When Dream and Day Unite
9. Falling into Infinity
10. Dream Theater
11. The Astonishing (I would rather not rate it at all, but...)
12. Images and Words (an "EP" with just Pull Me Under, Take the Time, Met 1 and Glass Moon would be probably in my top 5)
13. Awake (sorry!)
14. A Change of Seasons
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But given the recent development and also thanks to my various tweaks in TA tracklist, it's probably closer to

1. Systematic Chaos
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. A Dramatic Turn of Events
4. Train of Thought
5. Octavarium
6. Black Clouds and Silver Linings
7. Scenes from a Memory
8.-9. The Astonishing / When Dream and Day Unite
10. Falling into Infinity
11. Dream Theater
12. Images and Words
13. Awake
14. A Change of Seasons

now. I would still not rather rate it among the other albums, though. Also don't know how long it'll take before I'll change the list again.
 
You can :facepalm: all you want, I stand behind that choice proudly :p In fact, those three spots are probably the only three that have not changed in the last two years. ;)

And it's good. There's definitely at least one person needed who does not live and breathe the "PlayClassics" ethos.

I've finished the "song/suite" tracklist of TA - I'll post it here, since editing the original post would be just confusing. I've actually managed to bring it down under an hour and I've tried to keep the SDOIT structure, at least a bit... But it's probably going to need some more proof-listening anyway...

The Astonishing Suite
1. Dystopian Overture (Overture)
2. The Gift of Music (ATC)
3. Moment of Betrayal (WIMH/TTTSTA - the "heavy hitters", pt. 1)
4. Three Days (WIMH/TTTSTA - the "heavy hitters", pt. 2)
5. The Walking Shadow (WIMH/TTTSTA - the "heavy hitters", pt. 3)
6. A New Beginning (a transition, it doesn't really fit, possibly, but I could not leave it out)
7. Act of Faythe (Goodnight Kiss/The Calmdown Section, pt. 1)
8. A Life Left Behind (Goodnight Kiss/The Calmdown Section, pt. 2)
9. Chosen (Goodnight Kiss/The Calmdown Section, pt. 3)
10. Hymn of a Thousand Voices (Solitary Shell, the intro even sounds a bit that way)
11. Our New World (ATC Reprise - similar feeling to that track, not necessarily a reprise of Gift :D)
12. The Astonishing (Grand Finale)
 
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jazz from hell said:
This is kind of a reply to the discussion about Kevin/Derek/Rudess in the poll thread, which has already moved on to other subjects. But I'd like to emphasize first that A Change of Seasons was a truly great, great track, probably my fave DT song. After that, DT started to disappoint, and after Scenes the vibe wasn't there anymore IMO.

Rudess obviously has some unbelievable (classical piano) technique, way ahead of the other two. I also like the idea of the "continuum" with its possibilities for slides etc. However, his style is very "clean", harmonically strangely limited and very "poppy", and he uses a lot of very "plastic-y" sounds.
Kevin was a "moodier" musician, used darker, grittier sounds and put more emphasis on atmosphere - which is basically why he left the band.
Derek had more of a Jazz/Fusion side to him and used more interesting chords, while also being a real rock and metal guy (which makes him unique in the field of good keys-players), so he was very aware of good distortion etc.

Of course all three of them had the disadvantage of playing keys in a (to some extent) metal band, which is (to some extent (at least to some people, including (to some extent) me)) almost a contradiction in itself. :) When Derek was in the band, he had to face the same problem of people in the metal community not accepting him, as Jordan does now. So I don't envy them.

Still, I think Rudess fits the band mainly for his technical proficiency, while Kevin and Derek were both more interesting musically.
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Plus he said the magic phrase...

"Whatever you guys want is fine with me".
 
jazz from hell said:
This is kind of a reply to the discussion about Kevin/Derek/Rudess in the poll thread, which has already moved on to other subjects. But I'd like to emphasize first that A Change of Seasons was a truly great, great track, probably my fave DT song. After that, DT started to disappoint, and after Scenes the vibe wasn't there anymore IMO.

Rudess obviously has some unbelievable (classical piano) technique, way ahead of the other two. I also like the idea of the "continuum" with its possibilities for slides etc. However, his style is very "clean", harmonically strangely limited and very "poppy", and he uses a lot of very "plastic-y" sounds.
Kevin was a "moodier" musician, used darker, grittier sounds and put more emphasis on atmosphere - which is basically why he left the band.
Derek had more of a Jazz/Fusion side to him and used more interesting chords, while also being a real rock and metal guy (which makes him unique in the field of good keys-players), so he was very aware of good distortion etc.

Of course all three of them had the disadvantage of playing keys in a (to some extent) metal band, which is (to some extent (at least to some people, including (to some extent) me)) almost a contradiction in itself. :) When Derek was in the band, he had to face the same problem of people in the metal community not accepting him, as Jordan does now. So I don't envy them.

Still, I think Rudess fits the band mainly for his technical proficiency, while Kevin and Derek were both more interesting musically.
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That's very well put and in a way I might even agree... apart from the fact that subjectively you can still prefer one over the other. I agree with your assessment of Derek wholeheartedly and I like the fact you have also something nice to say about Jordan. Kevin... well, I agree even there, he was "moodier" and put more emphasis on atmosphere, but, BUT...
1.) I'm not all that for atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, I like me my Oldfield and Eno and even Vangelis, but in a prog band it's not what I search for. That's my main problem with latter-day Marillion, for example.
2.) I don't like the kind of atmosphere Moore provides - I can feel him all over Awake and I feel weird. The bloke's just not ... my blood type.
3.) Some of his choices are... not what I would choose. I dislike that whining sound that greets you in the beginning of Caught in a Web, I dislike the soud in the beginning of LTL etc. When he's good, though, he's excellent.

I already praised Rudess there, so I'll just copy it here...

JudasMyGuide said:
It's always about the musician's choices. The hated Jordan uses pure clean piano much more often than those other two, IMO (I might be wrong, but it's my genuine feeling) and even when he doesn't... take those "faux-harpsichord" embellishments from the 9th minute of Stream of Consciousness onward... and tell me it doesn't fit. It's fucking beautiful, that's what it is!

EDIT: I put this here before you edited that second part in. That said, I like him as both. I think he can stay in the background if he wants to and that it's often amazing - take the "no solo" Count of Tuscany:


(aah, the part at 17:28)

but he also does killer unisons, amazing clean piano solos and also controversial, but beloved-by-me synth solos. And he keeps working on himself and isn't afraid to experiment (that Bebot/iPhone crazyness, the continuum...)
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Let me also say that - although you might disagree, they remind me of other keyboardists in a way...

Moore - Tony Kaye
Sherinian - Rick Wakeman
Rudess - Keith Emerson

with my preference following that absolutely.

P. S.: Also, he looks like Henry Rollins! :p

IMG_0072.jpg
 
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Interesting thing I found in the lyric booklet of 6DOIT: it's the first album to specify that the music of every track is written by "Myung, Petrucci, Portnoy, Rudess" instead of simply "Dream Theater".

Also, LaBrie is credited as "Lead Vocals" and Portnoy as "Lead Drums"....

I think it's safe to assume that 6DOIT was the beginning of the end of their friendship. Which, considering the themes of mental disturbances and emotional trauma, is rather ironically funny.
 
From what I understand, around this time the band (not just MP) weren't happy with JLB and were considering letting him go. Part of the reason was that he wasn't participating in the writing sessions. I imagine that's why they specified that in the credits and also why he has two lyrical contributions on the album (he was trying to put in more effort).
 
Well also around this time they made a rule that if you wrote lyrics there needed to be vocal melodies with it, essentially preventing Myung from ever writing again.
 
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