Dragonforce are good but they suck live!

Onhell said:
oooooooooooh, ok, yeah, in that case I must agree with you.
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Yeah, didn't really phrase that first bit properly.  As a final thought about their lack of dynamics, it could be that they just don't use dynamics in their songs through choice, but know enough musical theory to apply them.  Which would be a worse crime, to be honest.

Actually, one thing that DragonForce DO bring to the table...Herman Li's hair.  Just asking for getting trapped in a machine head, is that fine head of hair.

EDIT: And in reference to the Kamelot/BG/Edguy/Helloween comments: They're all cheesy.  Any band with copious amounts of double bass (yes, that includes Amon Amarth) and anthemic choruses can't really be taken seriously.  I love those bands listed (not that keen on Helloween...I just don't like Kiske's voice, for some reason), but they are quite cheesy.  They could be cheesier, but still.
 
I love how you guys are mentioning the boys from Vienna in a power metal context. :D
I know limited things about power metal, so the only thing I will contribute is that Stratovarius strikes me as a prime example of technical skill fused with musical skill. Compared to this, Dragonforce are not good. End of contribution.
 
Onhell said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *Gasps for breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA Iced... Earth... Kamelot... NOT Cheesy/funny? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
H
Iced Earth: When the Eagle Cries, ALL of the Dark Saga

Epica: Center of the Universe and practically all of Karma.

NOTE: being cheesy/funny doesn't diminish quality. I love those bands to, but give me a break, they are cheesy as fuck.
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No, they're not cheesy.  When the Eagle Cries is a lame song, but you can't honestly compare the bands mentioned above to Helloween.

And how is Center of the Universe a cheesy song?  I think you're mistaking what is meant by cheesy. 

And by your standards all bands are cheesy, therefore justifying Helloween's terrible songs.
 
Onhell said:
Kiske is NOT overrated, he had a short career, which is different, but that guy can out sing ANYBODY in Metal. The guy has range, power and and actual studied voice. What other Metal singer actually has vibrato? He can actually SING, not just scream.
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Here's the old "technical" argument. So maybe he's an educated singer with a wide range, but that doesn't help him if (in comes my own personal opinion) his voice sounds like crap. I really like the old Helloween albums, but Kiske's shrieking does sometimes spoil them for me.
But then, I've really never been a fan of this castrate thing anyway, so that's what my thoughts are worth here.
 
Really high and clean singing is what Kiske does. I think a neutral person could confirm that his singing is high and clean (not raspy). It's almost never false.

His high notes are so high that people might not be used to it. Halford and other screamers reach those notes as well, but not while singing. To achieve these notes, they scream. Kiske sings.

Kürsch is the opposite of Kiske. He has one of the most raspiest voices in metal. Now, this Fozzy the bear kind of vibration is something I had to get used to.

These were my 2 cents, respecting the equal amount of cents owned by my German fellow. ;)

More cents:

I agree with Onhell that it's strange to judge Helloween by specific merits, which can also be applied to other bands, especially Gamma Ray. To say that Gamma Ray slays Helloween is a very personal thing. I'd never say that myself because Helloween put on a very professional live show with at times excellent playing and sound. Helloween's 21st century discography I find as inconsistent as Gamma Ray's, but both bands kick ass live.
 
Interesting.  I love Kursch's vocals, but don't particularly like Kiske's.  Yes, I appreciate that his vocals are all done clean, and he has a massive octave range, but I just don't like the texture of his voice.  Sometimes, you want something with a bit more crunch to listen to, and Hansi does that for me.  Just a matter of taste.

Plus, it's easier to imitate Hansi's vocals, which is good for sing-alongs.
 
Forostar said:
His high notes are so high that people might not be used to it.
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Actually, mate, I've been listening to Helloween for many years now, and I'm pretty much used to it ;)
 
Forostar said:
His high notes are so high that people might not be used to it. Halford and other screamers reach those notes as well, but not while singing. To achieve these notes, they scream. Kiske sings.
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Kiske's high notes are falsetto (not all, some less high are probably head), despite what some people may say because it is anatomically impossible to sing his highest notes without changing from head/chest to falsetto.

He also reinforces the falsetto in order NOT to sound like he's singing in falsetto. Just like Rob Halford used to do/does and just like Plant.

The difference is also that more often (1988-present, earlier too, but not as frequently, and almost never in the 70's) Rob also adds distortion to the reinforced falsetto (in case anyone thinks I mean he does it electronically, I just want to point out that's not whan I mean. He does in naturally, in his throat) which results in the screams, while he in the 70's just reinforced it with no distortion.

In conclusion, The screams and the "clean" high notes are not really that different. It's just a matter of taste.
 
I agree with Raven that taste makes a difference when it comes to appreciation, but besides that I also think that the voices of Kiske and e.g. Halford work different.

The following has nothing to do with taste:

Kiske sings some very high notes on some Helloween tracks. When the other guys hit these notes, in these same high octaves, it often doesn't sound like singing, at least it sounds more forced. Kiske does it without (forced) effort, I hear that clearly. Thus he sounds more "clean".

Illustration:
Halford's technique in the high parts of "One Shot at Glory" is different from Kiske's high stuff in e.g. "Twilight of the Gods". Hear the difference in effort?

I don’t mean that Halford can’t sing high, I just think Kiske can sing higher. In order to reach some very high notes Halford switches to a different technique in an earlier stage than Kiske. This has to do with the difference in vocal range, particularly in that high spectrum.

Perun said:
Actually, mate, I've been listening to Helloween for many years now, and I'm pretty much used to it ;)
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Alright, well I never get used to crap. ;)
 
I'm glad people are with me on Kiske.  I thought I was the only one  :S


As for the "Big Fozzy Bear", the reason I love his vocals so much is because he just has so much goddamn power.  Whenever he adopts the "thick" voice, it just sounds awesome.  No other singer can sound like him, and in this case, that's a good thing.
 
Of Helloween's singers, I like both Andi Deris and Kai Hansen more.  Especially Kai; his voice is just so varied.  He can't sing as high as Kiske and his high singing does sound forced (e.g. Heart of the Unicorn), but overall I think he's a better singer.

However, I don't think Kai was an essential part of Helloween.  I sort of compare him to Dave Mustaine and Metallica: I like that they left their old bands and created new, better ones, while the old one still kept its quality.  This way, we have two good bands for both instead of just one.  Helloween have still done some songs that are just as good as Kai's Helloween songs: King for a 1000 Years, The Dark Ride, Bells of the Seven Hells in particular, so I think they're doing well enough without Kai.

Helloween have never had any deep lyrics anyway, and Gamma Ray isn't much better, so I don't really mind about cheesiness (Heavy Metal Universe, anyone?).  I'm not looking for so much seriousness anyway in power metal, if I want that I listen to thrash.  But then even death metal can be cheesy; someone mentioned Amon Amarth, and if you look at it too seriously they are actually pretty cheesy.  Come on, what metal band has vikings battle on stage? :D  They're still an awesome live band, though.
 
Hansen wrote at least 50% of Helloween's songs before he left, maybe even more. Mustaine didn't.
Helloween released two flop records right after Hansen left. Metallica didn't (right after Mustaine left).
So Hansen really was essential for Helloween's rise and success in the 80s. Mustaine wasn't.

But I agree that we got two interesting bands in the end. The same goes for After Forever and Epica (if their history says something ;) ), and some other bands which "came out of one".

Kai Hansen's songs have always been the ones for me in Helloween. The man has some gift for catchy songs and great melodies. He still has the goods, but not on most of his songs, which is imo the difference with older Gamma Ray and his Helloween era, when he "scored 8 or 9 out of 10 times".

Perhaps we'd better continue here?
 
Forostar said:
I don’t mean that Halford can’t sing high, I just think Kiske can sing higher.
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Fail.

Both Kiske's and Halford's highest notes are A5.

Halford's in Savage, and Kiske's in someone´s Crying.

Oh, and Halford does it in a few more songs too. With both techniques.
 
Just out of interest, Yax, where did you get that information?  And do you have Bruce's for comparison?
 
I got the Kiske one from the youtube "4 octave wonders" series, and Halford's too. However, I checked Robs against my guitar and found yet another A5 that wasn't on that list - The highest note on Run of the Mill.
 
I think it's pretty funny how people try to rationalise what is a matter of taste. So the bloke can hit every note in this fucking universe- I still don't like the way his voice sounds.
 
WOW, I missed quite a lot.

So to make it quick

Thank you to those who agree about the cheesiness thing. The way I see it to say "A" power metal band is less cheesy than "B" is like saying "I'm not ridiculous because I wear a blue tootoo  instead of a pink one." At the end of the day you are still wearing a tootoo.

As for the singing I agree with Forostar. For example, Bruce's singing in Aces High I find unbearable as he is SCREAMING, unlike Kiske in Eagle Fly Free where he is SINGING. It might be true that both Halford's and Kiske highest notes are A5, however like pointed out by Forostar Kiske reaches those high notes effortlessly while Halford and Bruce really sound strained and forced. Bruces singing is MUCH better in the recent albums than what he did in the 80s.

I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but I'm not rationalizing taste. The ability for someone to sing is not a matter of taste but skill which is what I am arguing, Kiske has skill, whether you like it or not that is indeed a matter of taste... duh.
 
Actually, check my earlier posts where I say that it IS a matter of taste if it's me you're referring to. I've merely been trying to point out that their highest notes are the same, and that Rob's been into clean singing as well, and that it's not that different technique from what I've gathered on how to hit the notes whether it's done by distorting the notes or singing them clean.

But yes, I prefer Rob any day of the week. On the other hand, Kiske's on my top 10 shortlist.

Onhell: Be a huge Halford fan as I may, I agree with you that nowadays Rob has to struggle to hit the notes. Sad, but it's a fact. He does sound better and better the longer into the tour he gets, Especially now that he's given up smoking.

Edit: Damnit, I rechecked. He's just about under A5 on Run of the Mill, Somewhere around G5. Very close though.
 
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