Dragonforce are good but they suck live!

ilovemaiden

ilovemaiden

Prowler
They really do. I think that their problem is that they know how good they are think that they don' have to try on stage. I mean turisas are not as good as them but i you compare them live turisas are a 10 and dragonforce are a 6.
 
DragonFArce records a lot of their song in half the tempo and then they speed it up. No wonder they can't keep up live.
 
Actually they IMPROVISE a lot live, so they don't "suck" they just do things DIFFERENT. If you can't take that suck on a peanut in a squirrels mouth on a sunny afternoon.
 
Onhell said:
Actually they IMPROVISE a lot live, so they don't "suck" they just do things DIFFERENT. If you can't take that suck on a peanut in a squirrels mouth on a sunny afternoon.
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Improvisation is only good when the artist has an idea of where they want to go (c.f. Janick's 'improvised' solos in some Maiden live albums, e.g. the end of Hallowed Be Thy Name).  The fact is that DragonForce are not good musicians (listen to their 'Betcha Can't Play This' contribution) because they are sloppy and lazy.  They have little enough grasp of musical theory to be able to properly improvise live.  They are not a good band because they have style, yet no substance, and have one song which they choose to play slightly differently 9 times, then release it as an album.

If you want technical skill, listen to Jason Becker or Cynic or Paul Gilbert.

If you want good power metal, listen to Edguy or Gamma Ray

If you want speed, listen to Dark Angel.

DragonForce bring NOTHING new to the table, except extreme speed, to make up for their appalling lack of depth.  I can't actually think of one redeeming feature of their music which isn't summed up (and summed up BETTER) in many other bands, who aren't as popular.

And just to show that I'm not all rant and rave: DRAGONFORCE'S GREATEST HITS! BUY NOW!
 
Onhell said:
Actually they IMPROVISE a lot live, so they don't "suck" they just do things DIFFERENT. If you can't take that suck on a peanut in a squirrels mouth on a sunny afternoon.
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It's not about how they improvise it differently the songs have no substance or real meaning.So    :ok: but with my middle finger
 
Raven said:
Improvisation is only good when the artist has an idea of where they want to go (c.f. Janick's 'improvised' solos in some Maiden live albums, e.g. the end of Hallowed Be Thy Name).  The fact is that DragonForce are not good musicians (listen to their 'Betcha Can't Play This' contribution) because they are sloppy and lazy.  They have little enough grasp of musical theory to be able to properly improvise live.  They are not a good band because they have style, yet no substance, and have one song which they choose to play slightly differently 9 times, then release it as an album.

If you want technical skill, listen to Jason Becker or Cynic or Paul Gilbert.

If you want good power metal, listen to Edguy or Gamma Ray

If you want speed, listen to Dark Angel.

DragonForce bring NOTHING new to the table, except extreme speed, to make up for their appalling lack of depth.  I can't actually think of one redeeming feature of their music which isn't summed up (and summed up BETTER) in many other bands, who aren't as popular.

And just to show that I'm not all rant and rave: DRAGONFORCE'S GREATEST HITS! BUY NOW!
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I have to wholeheartedly  disagree with you. I have read enough interviews and background on DragonForce to know that to play what they do you have to have skill. Their main contribution indeed is speed, but they bring more than that to the table.

Edguy is decent power metal, now there is a band with little skill and even smaller contribution to the world of metal. They are a Helloween clone (and a blatant one at that). I like their stuff, a lot actually, but I can also recognize their shortcomings. Not to mention their new Cock Rock direction is not exactly the best of career moves.
 
Best power metal = Blind Guardian
Best singer = Hansi Kursch
Dragonforce = suck


3 revolutionary equations I invented for my new theory of quantum power metal.
 
And they are all wrong.

Best Power Metal BandS=Helloween/Stratovarious (their influence on the genre CANNOT be understated)

Best Singer= Michael Kiske (listen to Eagle Fly free and listen to Shelter From the Rain, 20 years between each track and the guy still has it)

DrangonForce=Overrated (I'll give you that much).
 
Onhell said:
And they are all wrong.

Best Power Metal BandS=Helloween/Stratovarious (their influence on the genre CANNOT be understated)

Best Singer= Michael Kiske (listen to Eagle Fly free and listen to Shelter From the Rain, 20 years between each track and the guy still has it)

DrangonForce=Overrated (I'll give you that much).
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Helloween = 2 good albums (Walls of Jericho, Keeper of the Seven Keys 1)
Helloween as a whole = not influential
Kai Hansen = awesome
Michael Kiske = WAY overrated imo
Hansi Kursch = way more kick ass, better range, stronger voice, thicker voice, and makes metal not pop
 
GuineaPig said:
Helloween = 2 good albums (Walls of Jericho, Keeper of the Seven Keys 1)
Helloween as a whole = not influential
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Only 2 good albums?!?!? I can't believe you mean that.

Now, we have to be clear about our terms here. To me, "good" is a very wide category. It covers everything from "just barely acceptable" to "AMAZING" (the latter of those being the highest compliment I pay to the best music). In other words, for me, "good" is an umbrella term that includes everything that is not "bad".

And on that basis, most Helloween is "good". Yeah, they had a couple of stinkers right after Keeper II, but they came back and have been solid for quite a while now.

As one example: I can't believe you wouldn't call Keeper II "good", as a minimum. That albums rocks.


Furthermore, I wouldn't call myself an expert on power metal (that would be Onhell), but I do listen to a lot of it - and I hear what sounds like Helloween influence all over the place. Onhell even pointed out the first band that comes to mind for me: Edguy. I'd also say that Gamma Ray has a very similar sound at times, but that's obviously not normal influence - it's Hansen being in both bands.
 
Keeper of the seven keys part 2- GuineaPig's exhaustive review

1. Eagle Fly Free - Decent.  A  nice riff, some good drumming, but a mediocre chorus and poor singing.  Never understood why it gets so much praise.
2. You Always Walk Alone - I hate whatever Kiske contributes to songwriting instantly.  "A Little Time" was the weakest point on Keepers Part 1, and this song continues the trend of crap.
3. Rise and Fall - Cheesy crap.  A terrible song.
4. Dr Stein - Cheesy but some decent riffs and ideas.  Terrible lyrics.
5. We Got the Right- Mid-tempo song with terrible guitar lines, cheesy lyrics and poor vocal delivery.
6. March of time - A good song, courtesy of course, by Hansen, who decides the train wreck should end.
7. I want Out - Catchy song with the first good lyrics of the album, with some great riffs and an awesome chorus.  Easily the best song on the album, and  works well with the rest of the album to show why Kai wanted out, i.e., because letting the other members of the band write songs was a terrible idea.
8. Keeper of the Seven Keys - terrible, forced, abomination of a song that sees Weikath attempt to copy Kai's epic, except he tries to do it without good riffs or flow, or little of redeeming value.
9. Save Us - bonus track and Kai's weakest contribution.  That being said, it's still better than the rest of the non-Kai songs (except maybe Eagle Fly Free)

Keeper of the Seven Keys Part 1 worked because there were only two bad songs, i.e. the songs not written by Kai. 

In conclusion, the only thing that made Helloween good for that little period of time was Kai's presence.  As soon as he was gone, you know what happened...

Power metal for me is always balancing on the edge of complete disaster.  It takes a good band to walk the tightrope of power metal, without dropping into the abyss of suck, and very few bands do that for me.  I do see Helloween's influence in the genre, but I see it more in the bad, generic power metal bands than bands like Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, or Kamelot.
 
GuineaPig said:
Helloween = 2 good albums (Walls of Jericho, Keeper of the Seven Keys 1)
Helloween as a whole = not influential
Kai Hansen = awesome
Michael Kiske = WAY overrated imo
Hansi Kursch = way more kick ass, better range, stronger voice, thicker voice, and makes metal not pop
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While I agree with SMX, here is MY rebuttal :D

Helloween has more than two 'good' albums (Walls of Jericho, Keepers 1 AND Keepers 2, Better Than Raw, The Dark Ride and Keeper Legacy can all fall under "good") Also Keepers 1 and 2 to this day have no peers as far as AMAZING albums go.

Helloween as a whole: HIGHLY influential.  Why do you think all power metal singers (including Timo Kotipelto from Stratovarius) sing like castrated boys from Vienna? the melodies harmonies found in Edguy, Hammerfall, Pagan's Mind, Sonata Arctica, etc.... Helloween CREATED power metal and Stratovarius helped heavily to shape it.

Kiske is NOT overrated, he had a short career, which is different, but that guy can out sing ANYBODY in Metal. The guy has range, power and and actual studied voice. What other Metal singer actually has vibrato? He can actually SING, not just scream.

Just because Hansi layers his vocals over and over, doesn't make him a better singer. He's really good, top 5 no doubt, but I'd put him in with Bruce as far as singing talent goes.
GuineaPig said:
Keeper of the seven keys part 2- GuineaPig's exhaustive review

1. Eagle Fly Free - Decent.  A  nice riff, some good drumming, but a mediocre chorus and poor singing.  Never understood why it gets so much praise.
2. You Always Walk Alone - I hate whatever Kiske contributes to songwriting instantly.  "A Little Time" was the weakest point on Keepers Part 1, and this song continues the trend of crap.
3. Rise and Fall - Cheesy crap.  A terrible song.
4. Dr Stein - Cheesy but some decent riffs and ideas.  Terrible lyrics.
5. We Got the Right- Mid-tempo song with terrible guitar lines, cheesy lyrics and poor vocal delivery.
6. March of time - A good song, courtesy of course, by Hansen, who decides the train wreck should end.
7. I want Out - Catchy song with the first good lyrics of the album, with some great riffs and an awesome chorus.  Easily the best song on the album, and  works well with the rest of the album to show why Kai wanted out, i.e., because letting the other members of the band write songs was a terrible idea.
8. Keeper of the Seven Keys - terrible, forced, abomination of a song that sees Weikath attempt to copy Kai's epic, except he tries to do it without good riffs or flow, or little of redeeming value.
9. Save Us - bonus track and Kai's weakest contribution.  That being said, it's still better than the rest of the non-Kai songs (except maybe Eagle Fly Free)

Keeper of the Seven Keys Part 1 worked because there were only two bad songs, i.e. the songs not written by Kai. 

In conclusion, the only thing that made Helloween good for that little period of time was Kai's presence.  As soon as he was gone, you know what happened...

Power metal for me is always balancing on the edge of complete disaster.  It takes a good band to walk the tightrope of power metal, without dropping into the abyss of suck, and very few bands do that for me.  I do see Helloween's influence in the genre, but I see it more in the bad, generic power metal bands than bands like Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, or Kamelot.
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It's official, you're on crack :p I know taste vary and all that tolerant PC bullshit, but seriously, how can you call Eagly Fly Free's singing "poor?" Name one song/singer that can even match the last minute of that song.

It is obvious that you are just a Kai fanboy and there is nothing wrong with that (I like Wietkath myself), but to not be able to recognize the other members contributions is rather narrow minded. Yes I said it.
 
Onhell said:
Helloween has more than two 'good' albums (Walls of Jericho, Keepers 1 AND Keepers 2, Better Than Raw, The Dark Ride and Keeper Legacy can all fall under "good") Also Keepers 1 and 2 to this day have no peers as far as AMAZING albums go.

Helloween as a whole: HIGHLY influential.  Why do you think all power metal singers (including Timo Kotipelto from Stratovarius) sing like castrated boys from Vienna? the melodies harmonies found in Edguy, Hammerfall, Pagan's Mind, Sonata Arctica, etc.... Helloween CREATED power metal and Stratovarius helped heavily to shape it.

Kiske is NOT overrated, he had a short career, which is different, but that guy can out sing ANYBODY in Metal. The guy has range, power and and actual studied voice. What other Metal singer actually has vibrato? He can actually SING, not just scream.

Just because Hansi layers his vocals over and over, doesn't make him a better singer. He's really good, top 5 no doubt, but I'd put him in with Bruce as far as singing talent goes.
It's official, you're on crack :p I know taste vary and all that tolerant PC bullshit, but seriously, how can you call Eagly Fly Free's singing "poor?" Name one song/singer that can even match the last minute of that song.

It is obvious that you are just a Kai fanboy and there is nothing wrong with that (I like Wietkath myself), but to not be able to recognize the other members contributions is rather narrow minded. Yes I said it.
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I've heard all their later albums, but I cannot call them good.  The Dark Ride and Gambling with the Devil are average, the others I'd call sub par.  I wouldn't call either Keepers albums perfect, far from it, but Keepers 1 is very good.  To say they have no peers is laughable.  As I've already said, I find Keepers 2 to be a train wreck of an album, with overall cheesy lyrics, riffs, and singing that I cannot bear to listen to.

I contend that Kai was the only influential member of Helloween.  Their style and (temporary) excellence was his, none others.  Though it could be argued that after he left Helloween inspired other bands to release shitty albums.

I'm just not a big Kiske fan.  He has his moments, but overall I find his voice rather thin, lacking the power that Dickinson, Dio, and the almighty Kursch possess.  I don't know what Blind Guardian you've heard, but I can assure you that it isn't overdubbing that makes Hansi awesome.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b2L5oZvzsc
^One of my favourite vocal performances.  The power in his voice is incredible, and I prefer his style to Kiske's every day of the year.

As for me being on crack, I dare you to tell me that "Rise and Fall" is a good song.  Or "We've got the Right".  Go on.  Do it.  :p  As for Eagle Fly Free's singing, once again I just do not like his "castrated boys from Vienna" approach.  He has range, but that's it.

As for being a Kai fanboy, I'm not really.  I just honestly think that he is one of the best guitarists/songwriters in the power metal field, and that once he left Helloween they had nobody who could write a decent song. 

I won't insult you by calling you a Helloween fanboy, but there are a lot of them.  You know, the ones that give EVERY album of theirs 90+%?  (on metal-archives.com, I mean) 

I just don't understand why such a big deal is made about Helloween.  Gamma Ray slays them, and the majority of the bands you mentioned that have been "inspired" by Kai (Hammerfall, Pagan's Mind) are better than them as well.
 
Funny you call Helloween Cheesy, but Gamma Ray (Heart of the Unicorn? give me a break) isn't...

I have all blind Guardian albums and since Nightfall Hansi has layered all the vocals if not earlier. Rise and Fall IS a good song. It's intentionally humorous. If you criticize helloween for cheesy, humorous lyrics, frankly Power Metal is NOT your genre since ALL of those bands are both and sadly most not intentionally. At least Helloween can laugh at themselves.

Kai was an important yet, obviously, not vital part of Helloween. Roland Grapow was a good replacement, Grosskopf is a good bassist. The only weak point was Ingo, Uli was a HUGE step up in the drumming, but  Ingo was good enough for their earlier stuff.

In conclusion to call Helloween cheesy is being deluded as ALL Power Metal bands are cheesy and laughable whether it is their intention or not.l
 
Onhell said:
Funny you call Helloween Cheesy, but Gamma Ray (Heart of the Unicorn? give me a break) isn't...

I have all blind Guardian albums and since Nightfall Hansi has layered all the vocals if not earlier. Rise and Fall IS a good song. It's intentionally humorous. If you criticize helloween for cheesy, humorous lyrics, frankly Power Metal is NOT your genre since ALL of those bands are both and sadly most not intentionally. At least Helloween can laugh at themselves.

Kai was an important yet, obviously, not vital part of Helloween. Roland Grapow was a good replacement, Grosskopf is a good bassist. The only weak point was Ingo, Uli was a HUGE step up in the drumming, but  Ingo was good enough for their earlier stuff.

In conclusion to call Helloween cheesy is being deluded as ALL Power Metal bands are cheesy and laughable whether it is their intention or not.l
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!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rise and Fall is an abomination that does not deserve to exist upon this good Earth.  I don't care whether they were trying to be funny or not, it doesn't prevent it from being a horrendous song.  Metal bands shouldn't be digging for laughs.

As for all power metal bands being cheesy and humourous whether intentional or not, I once again repeat my tightrope comment:
Some bands can walk the tightrope without falling into suck, most can't.  The power metal bands I listen are very select.

Blind Guardian (though I do have some issues with their lyrics), Iced Earth, Kamelot, and Gamma Ray are all serious bands that rightly approach power metal without being cheesy or attempting to be funny.  They know that it doesn't belong in their music.
 
GuineaPig said:
Blind Guardian (though I do have some issues with their lyrics), Iced Earth, Kamelot, and Gamma Ray are all serious bands that rightly approach power metal without being cheesy or attempting to be funny. 
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *Gasps for breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA Iced... Earth... Kamelot... NOT Cheesy/funny? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
H
Iced Earth: When the Eagle Cries, ALL of the Dark Saga

Epica: Center of the Universe and practically all of Karma.

NOTE: being cheesy/funny doesn't diminish quality. I love those bands to, but give me a break, they are cheesy as fuck.
 
Onhell said:
I have to wholeheartedly  disagree with you. I have read enough interviews and background on DragonForce to know that to play what they do you have to have skill. Their main contribution indeed is speed, but they bring more than that to the table.
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Now, there's a difference between musical skill in playing and understanding of the music.  I'm not denying that they can play guitar well.  But that's not enough to be a good band.  I point you in the direction of Jason Becker for a prime example of where performance skill and compositional skill come together.  There's no emotion to DragonForce's music, since they don't really have any changes in timbre, tempo, dynamics...and that's what I mean by saying they don't have musical skill.
 
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