Dave Mustaine Supports Rick Santorum

I agree with Zare. The reason people illegally download is because they couldn't or wouldn't spend money on it to begin with, so there's no loss. I never understood that argument. I didn't download that Kamelot album because I was too lazy to go to the store; I downloaded it because their CDs cost an arm and a leg and I couldn't afford it. If I couldn't get it from torrents, then I just wouldn't get it. The difference is that now Kamelot has gained a potential concert-goer. Well, sort of. I haven't heard their new singer yet, and Roy Khan was the main attraction for me, but the point still stands.
 
Piracy is theft. I am going to give one go to prove this, but some people simply will never accept the truth of this, so it's not worth trying beyond one.

The only moral transcation between two individuals, or an individual and a group, or two groups, is one that is voluntarily agreed upon by both sides. Theft is a transaction that is performed by one side without the other side's consent, where the thief takes the property of the non-consenting party, usually without payment.

Since Megadeth is controversial among people here, I will use Iron Maiden as an example instead. The songs written by Iron Maiden are the intellectual property of the songwriters. Steve Harris owns Hallowed Be Thy Name. Bruce Dickinson owns Powerslave. Adrian Smith owns Wasted Years. Why does Steve own the particular combination of notes that makes up Hallowed Be Thy Name? Because he put in quite a bit of his own effort to create it. It is a product, no less a product than food or a cell phone, even though you cannot touch it. It is a product of his mind.

Most people agree that part of the definition of intellectual property is true. Most people realize that if another band were to record Hallowed Be Thy Name and take the songwriting credit for themselves, and not pay royalties to Iron Maiden (or Maiden's label, likely, in this case), that this would be wrong and should be illegal. Most people even recognize that if they were to do this, but change the song a slight amount (for example, have the line "Hallowed Be Thy Name" repeated 3 times instead of two, or just have it said one time or any such minor variation), it would still be wrong. And most people realize that if they changed the name of the song, or changed its lyrics and kept the music exactly the same, this would be wrong (there are exceptions with the changing the lyrics thing, for example, The Four Horsemen by Metallica and Mechanix by Megadeth which was written by members of Metallica including Mustaine, then Hetfield rewrote the lyrics after Mustaine's ejection, but Mustaine recorded the original version on Megadeth's debut. This is naturally okay because members of both groups were involved in the songwriting. Though there is an argument to be made that since Mustaine asked them not to, Metallica should not have continued using his material. But I digress).

Many of these people, however, do not understand the extension of intellectual property to the prevention of unwanted nonconsensual downloading of the material. I will now try to explain why it should and does, in fact, extend that far.

The central focus of every sale or trade is the consensual, mutually beneficial exchange of value. Money is something of value. Food is something of value. A computer is something of value. Even .intangible things can be considered valuable to people, although this is far more personal than something like money or food. MTo some, respect or love are values. In any case, a CD is something of value. And, whether you believe it or not, a music download is something of value. And if you question whether a music download is something of value, consider this:

This item is a set of 50 blank CDs. It costs around 16 US dollars. It doesn't matter whether you're familiar with the currency, because a comparison is coming...

This item is a CD. It is essentially the same product as one of the 50 CDs in the item listed above. There are two important difference between this CD and the other 50: 1) This 1 CD costs around 10 US dollars, which is 2/3 of the price of the previous item, which has 50 CDs instead of 1. 2) This CD has The Number of the Beast on it.

So why is this 1 CD 2/3 the price of a pack of 50? Surely, if digital music files do not have value (they are not tangible items and can be copied, so the argument goes), then a CD that has a "valueless" digital music file burned onto it, should not cost more than 31 times as much as a CD without a file on it. Surely, if the only reason that stealing a CD is wrong is because of the cost of the physical item, then either a music CD should cost 0.32 US dollars (the price of the 50 CD pack divided by 50, giving you the price of one blank CD), or the 50 pack of blank CDs should cost 500 US dollars.

Of course, this is ludicrous. The reason is obvious: The cost of a CD with music on it does not only pay for the physical CD, but it pays the band who performed the music, the producer who recorded the band and ensured that the music sounds right, and the record label who promoted the album and made sure the CD would be sold in stores.

So why is this truth that is so obvious to most of us when discussing CDs suddenly abandoned when we talk about digital music files? Some of the same people who consider the idea of a 0.32 dollar CD ridiculous are now arguing that media files have no value, and therefore to take them without paying is not theft.

When you download a song or album from iTunes or Amazon, you are making the same exchange as you are when you buy a CD. You voluntarily agree to give the artist a value, your money, in exchange for them giving you a value, their music.

So when you, instead of buying a CD or downloading music legally, choose to bypass these moral principles to save money and go to an illegal download site, you are bypassing the fair exchange. In essence, you're telling the artist: "I will take value from you in the form of this music, but I refuse to give you any value in return."

How is this not stealing? If anyone can argue that this is not stealing in a rational argument, without emotional appeals, I am listening. However, I suggest saving your breath, because this is impossible. To pirate an album is irrational and immoral.


You may believe that you are doing a good thing by refusing your money to Dave Mustaine. I have no problem with that act, in its essence, the idea of voting with your wallet. But you cannot morally or rationally have your cake and eat it too.

I'll give one last example, this one related to what you're talking about doing.

In the United States, we have a fast food restaurant called Chick-Fil-A. This restaurant sells fried chicken, but is in the same vein as McDonald's. Recently, the owner of Chick-Fil-A revealed that he opposes gay marriage and that he gives some of his money to organizations that oppose gay marriage. This caused an uproar in the United States. Though it got a little crazy (mayors promising to prevent any new Chick-Fil-A's from opening in their cities, government officials on the other side trying to make Chick-Fil-A the official restaurant of something or other), aside from the government stuff, the recent Chick-Fil-A uproar was a perfect example of voting with your wallet. The conservatives who oppose gay marriage began eating at Chick-Fil-A more often, and posting pictures of themselves on the internet eating Chick-Fil-A. Meanwhile, the advocates of gay marriage did the opposite: they convinced people to boycott Chick-Fil-A.

This is a real-world lesson of voting with your wallet. Both sides were (putting views on marriage aside) expressing their views in a moral and legal manner. And by refusing to buy Megadeth music, anyone who made that choice would similarly be acting in a moral and legal manner.

Here's the important part. Zare, you said that pirating Megadeth music is okay because you "would never buy the record. They'd never get $10 out of [you]."

Since we have already established, I believe, that music is a value, just as chicken nuggets are a value, let's use the Chick-Fil-A example again.

To my knowledge, none of the boycotters of Chick-Fil-A stole chicken from them. I did not hear anyone say anything to the effect of "it's okay that I took these chicken nuggets without paying for them, because I would never buy them anyway. They'd never get money out of me."

In other words, maybe some of those boycotters enjoyed Chick-Fil-A. Maybe they considered it, to paraphrase you, "excellent food worth being eaten." But they did not harbor any illusion that they could have their chicken and eat it too*. They chose to not give money to the company, and at the same time, realized that this meant not receiving chicken from them. They refused to trade with the company. The company did not get their money, and they did not get chicken. In other words, they did not give a value, and they didn't get one, at least as far as Chick-Fil-A is concerned.

So, why do you believe that the rule of trade does not apply to you? Why do you think it is okay for you to receive a value from Megadeth without giving them a value in return? Because you wouldn't have bought it anyway is no excuse. You can't get something for nothing. If you think Rust In Peace is a must-have album, you have a few moral recourses. One is to break your boycott in order to buy this album, and it alone. This may not be optimal. Another is to buy it used on eBay or similar, since your money does not go directly to Megadeth, but goes to an individual who bought it from Megadeth in the past.

So, it's not even like you must choose between your boycott and owning that one album. There are other recourses besides a decision to violate rationality and morality by electing to pirate.

Zare said:
however the point of being an artist comes down to reaching people, not reaching for their wallets

This is not something with which I disagree. This is why I prefer the attitude of Iron Maiden to the attitude of modern pop artists. However, it is a cop-out and appeal to emotion when used as a pro-piracy argument.

Designing computers should be about making something that you are proud of and that people will have a good experience using, not about making a quick buck. But this does not mean that no one should pay money for computers.

Making gourmet meals should be about making something that people will enjoy to eat, not about making money. But this does not mean that all gourmet meals should be free.

Of course the main focus should be about music, not money. This is why I would be far more inclined to boycott Metallica than Megadeth, though I will boycott neither. But it is completely unreasonable to suggest that you shouldn't have to pay for music. Producing the great (and say about Mustaine what you will, he has created great music) music that Megadeth does took effort. Mustaine gave up a lot to make it as a musician. I guarantee you his focus was not on making money, but on making music that he loved. Aside from Risk, which can be debated, Mustaine has rarely strayed from this focus. Dave also needs to eat. He needs to pay bills. He needs funds to put on a tour and to make albums. However, by pirating his albums, you have chosen to ignore the effort he put into them and take the fruits of his labor without paying him in an exchange. Frankly, I think Dave would be insulted by the implication that asking you to pay for his music is proof that he's only after money. Hell, Iron Maiden has asked that you buy their albums (I believe Bruce said this in the Wildest Dreams bootleg speech, check ** for "On Bootlegs"). I'm sure if you told Steve that expecting you to pay for his music is proof that he's only after money, he would hit you in the face.

So, yes, the focus should be on music, not large profits. But to say that this means that music should be free is a false equivalency, based on false premises.

Zare said:
Besides, all the people screaming "piracy is killing us", both in art and software world, are literally swimming in money. Just take a look who's signed on those anti-piracy bills, etc.

"Stealing from him is okay because he's wealthy. We can't take him seriously when he tells us to not take his things without asking, because he won't miss them anyway."

This is your argument in a nutshell.


*I'm terribly sorry for the pun.

**On Bootlegs:

The issue of bootlegs is a razor, and I walk the line on that silver blade***.

Yeah, the guy who just wrote the 4 billion word essay on piracy has bootlegs. Allow my explanation.

In this instance, by "bootlegs" I am referring to recordings of concerts that have not been released officially by the band in question as live albums.

Bootlegs are a borderline case. I personally will not condemn anyone who trades or downloads bootlegs (I oppose the sale of them), so long as they own the band's albums. Personally, I'm not certain how the whole thing plays out morally, but I'll explain how I decide:

1) If the concert is officially available from the band, I will not obtain the bootleg (example: Metallica)

2) If the band does not wish people to record/trade/download their bootleg concerts, I will not obtain the bootleg (example: Rush. Neil Peart has stated his disapproval of bootlegging)

3) If the recording is not officially available, and the band has stated that they are okay with it, I will obtain the bootleg! (example: Iron Maiden. Bruce Dickinson encouraged distribution of Wildest Dreams live bootlegs, with the qualification that those who enjoyed the song should buy the Dance of Death album when it was released)

This is my simple guide to bootleg ethics. However, since it is such a borderline issue, I will not condemn anyone who, say, has Rush bootlegs. I will, however, condemn someone who has a bootleg of a concert which is available as an official release, but does not have the official release (meaning I have no problem if you have a bootleg of the full Long Beach 4th night 1985 Maiden show so long as you own Live After Death).

***Truly, I am sorry.


I realize that to some people, this post is prohibitively long. If you have a short attention span, then you probably didn't read it. Unfortunately, the arguments involved in opposing piracy are complex due to their rational nature, and cannot be condensed (in good conscience) to a few buzzwords and emotional appeals, unlike the pro-piracy arguments. I highly recommend you read this, it may give you a better understanding of the reasons why piracy is wrong. But if you just said "tl;dr," I guess there's nothing I can do to make you read this. But I really hope you at least skim it.
 
Damn that's a long post.

If I can't download an album, I won't listen to it. I don't have enough money to spend on albums I don't know. If I don't listen to it, I can't be a fan. Not being a fan means no concert tickets, not spreading the word.

I'm %100 sure bands would prefer an "illegal-downloading" fan to a person who is not a fan at all.

If I really like the band, I'll go ahead and buy the thing, that's exactly what I did with Maiden albums. I downloaded the albums first, liked them, Maiden became my favorite band and I went ahead and bought the albums to support them. Not to listen to them (I already could do this through the downloaded ones) but to support the band. Had I haven't downloaded the albums, the buying wouldn't happen.

Downloading the albums, extracting them to CD's and selling them is piracy. Downloading the album itself is not.
 
I would like to point out that there are legal ways to sample an album to see if you like it besides illegally downloading it. For example, you could use Spotify. Spotify has a free service which is like Pandora; a personalized radio station that plays songs similar to an artist, genre or song. If you set up a station based on an artist, it plays similar songs to the artist's as well as playing a track by that artist every 3 or 4 tracks (at least, this is how Pandora works, which is another free service. I have not used Spotify's free service) So if you wanted to see if you liked Iron Maiden, you could set up a station based around Iron Maiden, which would play around 30% Iron Maiden songs and 70% songs from similar bands like Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, and Metallica. This would get you slowly acquainted with the band, and you could buy albums with many songs you like.

If you want to immediately get acquainted with a particular album, Spotify also offers two tiers of paid services. The lower tier costs 5 US dollars per month (about half the price of an album). With it, you can stream unlimited songs from their library.

This service is legal and free, because the labels have a contract with Spotify to offer their music to stream. And I don't think $5 is an unreasonable price to pay to sample unlimited songs.

Note that the purpose of this post was not to advertise Spotify's services. I am not on their payroll, and do not personally subscribe to them. If the moderating team had a problem with me mentioning their brand name, I can censor the actual brand name, but I think the actual content adds something to the discussion more than promotes a company.
 
People should share more anyway, less capitalism is better. But I support Spotify. But I also support the Pirate Bay.
I might come back with a more rational rebuttal of your arguments 425, but for now I will appeal to something totally irrational: Kopimism.
 
I say to Kopinism what I say to every religion: You can practice your faith so long as you don't violate the rights of others. So just like Muslims shouldn't be allowed to force women to wear burkas and Christians shouldn't be allowed to force gays not to have romantic relationships, Kopinism shouldn't be allowed to share copyrighted material without permission from the rights owner.

Also, I reject the premise that there is anything bad about capitalism. Capitalism, in its true form (which does not exist in the world today) is the only just and moral system, built on voluntary exchange. Capitalism has garnered some negative connotations lately, many thanks in large part to people who want to discredit it, but if you go back to the basic premises of it, it is a fundamentally good system.
 
I see.

There is a nifty little thing called "Prior Art". Nice that you mentioned Hallowed Be Thy Name, and it's "owner", Steve Harris. Well, our dear 'arry borrowed heavily (restraining myself from using a harsher word) from one of his influence-bands. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look it up, you're in for quite a surprise. There is prior art in music everywhere.

Personally I think that the whole system is screwed because of mass means of distribution, eg the Internet. People used to record songs off radio, they used to clone tapes with computer programs on them. Nothing new. But it wasn't massive, easy to access and available 24/7. What exactly is computer software, in legal terms? It's a manifestation of intellectual work, that can be cloned infinitely. The programmer doesn't have production costs in distribution, because it can be peer-distributed. With program that goes out on market without any kind of support plan, every man hour is put into development. Intellectual development. Thus it's ratio between profit and cost is a limes to infinite. So we say we don't sell the software, we grant you the right to use it under terms and conditions, a license. But wait, it's a product, and piracy is theft. Err...no. It's not a product. It's a manifestation of intellectual work, distributed in a human-consumable form. What good would the compiled bytes of a program do if they weren't recorded on an appropriate medium, ready to be translated via computer's man-machine-interface into man-eatable shape? So the carrier medium is a necessity, not something that suddenly turns IP into a physical product.

On the other hand, it's completely wrong to abuse somebody's piece of work.
In my eyes, the system has failed to find a legal and fair way for both parties. Who do you think pays for RIAA and others? Record labels. So a small independent label cannot be "protected" in same way as Sony, because they don't have enough cash. Where's justice in that? If BSA comes in to check on your computer, they're not going to complain about your cracked WinRAR. Because company that produces WinRAR doesn't have a deal with BSA. You will probably be charged by the state, but WinRAR guys won't see any money from that.

I think that laws regarding piracy are completely idiotic and I have no problem of breaking idiotic laws. I have my own practice on subject, which I think is fair enough.

- I am going to illegally download an album. Band can only profit from me listening it. I will not, obviously, buy the record I haven't heard. In my head, primary usage of music is to reach to people, to send a message, to provoke emotion. And the artist should be compensated for his work. If he manages to send a message to me, I will support the artist by buying albums or going to a concert.
- I am going to illegally download and use a computer software. Again, I haven't damaged anyone by doing so, but I am not being fair. So for any software that would benefit me commercially, I acquire an appropriate license. That includes Windows 7 Enterprise and all the small utilities (Total Commander for instance) that come as infrastructure for my commercial work.

What about a downloaded album that you have purchased? Sure as hell! The CD isn't the best quality for 99% of people. Lossless rip via optical ports made with high-end CD readers that have expensive DAC circuitry is. So i d/l a FLAC.

If piracy never happened, Microsoft, Adobe, Sony, Autodesk and likes, would be far worse off.
You're a design student. You're using downloaded Photoshop. What's the risk of police breaking into your room and taking your drive? Nanoscopic. After college, you're going into business. But there are different rules, inspection can come in any day. So you purchase a Photoshop license. After all, you've been working and mastering Photoshop for years, few thousand bucks is not worth the time needed to master an alternative software.

If you legally used free, open source GIMP software from day one, you'd be using GIMP in business environment, too.
If Microsoft had and used means to stop people from pirating Windows, they'd have 95% less users because there are a lot of poor people around the world, and they're going to find an alternative contrary to paying 20% of hardware price for the OS. Sony spat out Playstation as CD-based console because they knew people are going to pirate games, which will vastly increase console's popularity.

Any usage can only be beneficial to the author, be it music, or software. Using it without appropriate consent doesn't cost them anything.
So I say, draw the line on the point where people start making money off somebody's piece of work.
 
I made the personal choice some time ago that I would never buy a digital copy of music. I think it's about time for recorded music to no longer be something that needs to be sold. It costs next to nothing to record music these days, I could record an entire album right now. Why would I sell it? What's important to me as an artist is that people hear my music, and most new artists are catching on to this, even older bands are doing things like streaming albums online. Hell, Metallica of all bands did this. There are other ways to make money as a musician. Merchandise, live performances, the list goes on. It isn't actual artists who are concerned about piracy anymore. It's the record labels, and they don't need to exist anymore anyway.
 
Good stuff in the last few posts.
Can't say I anyone changed my mind, but you all made great arguments.
I'm thinking this is more about a personal morality issue than anything else.
 
There is a nifty little thing called "Prior Art". Nice that you mentioned Hallowed Be Thy Name, and it's "owner", Steve Harris. Well, our dear 'arry borrowed heavily (restraining myself from using a harsher word) from one of his influence-bands. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look it up, you're in for quite a surprise. There is prior art in music everywhere.

Are you referring to Beckett's Rainbow's Gold? If so, I don't see many similarities besides the line "Catch... soul...willing to fly away." Which Steve should probably have attributed. However, unless you were referring to another song, most of Hallowed is Steve's work. Naturally, there is a limited number of riffs and melodies, and songs are going to sound similar. But there's a difference between slight borrowing and gratuitous copying.

Personally I think that the whole system is screwed because of mass means of distribution, eg the Internet. People used to record songs off radio, they used to clone tapes with computer programs on them. Nothing new. But it wasn't massive, easy to access and available 24/7.

Yes, people have always pirated. What's your point? That doesn't make it okay. Governments have also been mostly repressive since the beginning of time. That doesn't make repression okay.

What exactly is computer software, in legal terms? It's a manifestation of intellectual work, that can be cloned infinitely. The programmer doesn't have production costs in distribution, because it can be peer-distributed. With program that goes out on market without any kind of support plan, every man hour is put into development. Intellectual development. Thus it's ratio between profit and cost is a limes to infinite. So we say we don't sell the software, we grant you the right to use it under terms and conditions, a license. But wait, it's a product, and piracy is theft. Err...no. It's not a product. It's a manifestation of intellectual work, distributed in a human-consumable form. What good would the compiled bytes of a program do if they weren't recorded on an appropriate medium, ready to be translated via computer's man-machine-interface into man-eatable shape? So the carrier medium is a necessity, not something that suddenly turns IP into a physical product.

Intellectual property is not necessarily a physical product, but it is property. Just because you can't hold it in your hands or because it can be easily copied, that doesn't mean that it isn't property, and that doesn't mean that the rights are not owned by its creator. The specific sequences of code that make up those software are the intellectual property of the original creator of the program. Works of the mind are property, despite the fact that you can't always touch it or hold it.

Where do you draw the line? What if I bought a book, scanned every page, and posted it online as a PDF for anyone to download? Is that something you'd be okay with? After all, you can't expect me to buy a book without checking it out first, right?

The medium doesn't make IP into a product, in fact, a computer file is not a physical product. It is a digital product. And it is the property of the one who produced it, meaning that this person or group holds the rights to distribution. If they don't want you copying the program and giving it to 20 of your friends, that's their choice, because the program is their intellectual property.

On the other hand, it's completely wrong to abuse somebody's piece of work.
In my eyes, the system has failed to find a legal and fair way for both parties. Who do you think pays for RIAA and others? Record labels. So a small independent label cannot be "protected" in same way as Sony, because they don't have enough cash. Where's justice in that? If BSA comes in to check on your computer, they're not going to complain about your cracked WinRAR. Because company that produces WinRAR doesn't have a deal with BSA. You will probably be charged by the state, but WinRAR guys won't see any money from that.

It is absolutely true that things are unfair for small labels, and it is absolutely true that piracy laws need to be changed. But not changed meaning "ended." Changed meaning "made so that even small producers can be protected from people who have no consideration for the rights of others."

I think that laws regarding piracy are completely idiotic and I have no problem of breaking idiotic laws. I have my own practice on subject, which I think is fair enough.

Idiotic in the sense that they do not actually prevent piracy in most cases.

- I am going to illegally download an album. Band can only profit from me listening it. I will not, obviously, buy the record I haven't heard. In my head, primary usage of music is to reach to people, to send a message, to provoke emotion. And the artist should be compensated for his work. If he manages to send a message to me, I will support the artist by buying albums or going to a concert.

See, there's the intellectual error. You have essentially decided that the end justifies the means. But the problem with that argument is that it doesn't change the fact that this is someone's property. You may have decided to use it in a way that benefits them, but it isn't your decision to make. They hold the right to how their property is distributed, not you. You may have the best of intentions, but that does not give you the right to do anything you wish to achieve these ends.

As I've argued previously, illegally downloading to sample is not necessary. There are sites to legally stream music, plus, many artists, in the age of the internet, post music videos or songs online for free so that you can get an idea of the music before you buy it. And iTunes offers 90 second previews of each song. I'm frankly not certain why people feel it is necessary to hear the whole album before buying it. From music videos, singles, and 90 second previews, you should be able to make an educated guess about whether you are interested in the album. And if not, that's quite frankly too bad, because that's all the artist, who, let's not forget, holds all the rights to distribution of their intellectual property, has decided to provide as an example.

I am not at all hung up on hearing a whole album before buying it. For example, I recently bought my first B L A Z E album, Silicon Messiah. I had not heard one second of this album before buying it.

Also, you say this now:

"And the artist should be compensated for his work."

But from what you said earlier, what you actually meant was:

"The artist should be compensated for his work unless I disagree with his political views in which case I'll keep his work but I won't pay him for it"

- I am going to illegally download and use a computer software. Again, I haven't damaged anyone by doing so, but I am not being fair. So for any software that would benefit me commercially, I acquire an appropriate license. That includes Windows 7 Enterprise and all the small utilities (Total Commander for instance) that come as infrastructure for my commercial work.

You have damaged someone, by infringing on their property rights. In addition, if it was a software that you pirated but would have paid for (because you wanted it enough to pay for it), you have cost them money. Software was created by actual people, who need money for things like food. Or rent. I don't understand how you can be insensitive enough to take from them without giving them anything in return. You're benefitting from their work, but you haven't made a fair exchange for it.

What about a downloaded album that you have purchased? Sure as hell! The CD isn't the best quality for 99% of people. Lossless rip via optical ports made with high-end CD readers that have expensive DAC circuitry is. So i d/l a FLAC.

This one is not a big deal for me, so long as you legally purchased the album.

If piracy never happened, Microsoft, Adobe, Sony, Autodesk and likes, would be far worse off.

Am I supposed to feel bad for poor Microsoft and Adobe because if not for illegal activity, they wouldn't be filthy rich?

You're a design student. You're using downloaded Photoshop. What's the risk of police breaking into your room and taking your drive? Nanoscopic. After college, you're going into business. But there are different rules, inspection can come in any day. So you purchase a Photoshop license. After all, you've been working and mastering Photoshop for years, few thousand bucks is not worth the time needed to master an alternative software.

If you legally used free, open source GIMP software from day one, you'd be using GIMP in business environment, too.
If Microsoft had and used means to stop people from pirating Windows, they'd have 95% less users because there are a lot of poor people around the world, and they're going to find an alternative contrary to paying 20% of hardware price for the OS. Sony spat out Playstation as CD-based console because they knew people are going to pirate games, which will vastly increase console's popularity.

I'm not sure what the point of that first one is besides the fact that GIMP is a far better choice than Photoshop for most people.

Those companies that benefitted from immoral activity, I would say "good riddance" if they were to all disappear.

Any usage can only be beneficial to the author, be it music, or software. Using it without appropriate consent doesn't cost them anything.
So I say, draw the line on the point where people start making money off somebody's piece of work.

In some cases, unauthorized usage could be beneficial to the creator. However, the end does not justify the unquestionably immoral means. In fact, I challenge you right now to rationally prove that it is okay to use others' property as you wish, keeping in mind that the end doesn't justify the means.

Using it without appropriate consent DOES cost them something. Say I'm a college student, and I pirate Microsoft Office. Well, Microsoft Office was probably vital enough to my being able to go through college that I would have paid for it if he piracy option was not available to me. Therefore, my act of piracy HAS cost Microsoft money.

I say draw the line when you cross a rational moral line, i.e., when you use others' property without their permission. That's what is say. And you have the burden of rebuttal right now, to a rational argument in favor of property rights.

All in all, you need to stop justifying the means with the end. Prove rationally either that property rights don't exist or that it is okay to violate them, or concede. End justifying the means is NOT rationally argument, since there are numerous examples of how the end DOESN'T justify the means.
 
I spend money on physical copies of albums just because I like lossless audio, and I like the booklets and that sort of thing. I do not spend money on iTunes. Why would I do that if I can get a digital copy for free? I'll just save my money, and if the song/album piques my interest enough, I'll buy it when I can afford it. Additionally, there's the issue that some of the albums I want to listen to simply aren't available in the area I'm in. It's very difficult to find Edith Piaf in southern California. :p So I'll just download it. Besides, it's not like the band/artist makes much off of each CD. I could totally be remembering this wrong, but I think in Slash's autobiography, he says that he only made a dime off of every record sold.

Now that I think about it, Iron Maiden is the only band I got into without piracy. I spent nearly $100 on a Guns N' Roses ticket back in March. That should make up for the albums I hadn't purchased yet (I have them all, but I think in March I only had Chinese Democracy, Use Your Illusion II, and The Spaghetti Incident because they were on sale).
 
@ 425

I illegally download the albums because I'm an archiver. I like to keep everything together and see them on my PC. I've spent hours and hours listing the composers of every single song on my PC.

Also, the "borrowing" Zare talked about wasn't about Hallowed Be Thy Name. I assume it was about the slow instrumental section of The Nomad, which is completely identical to the ending part on Beckett's song, Life's Shadow.
 
@The Flash: I also archive my music and have the composers all listed in all my songs only computer. But these are songs that I bought legally, most from iTunes and a few from Amazon MP3, as well as Brave New World and Dance of Death which I ripped from CDs (those albums are not available in iTunes/Amazon).

So I guess I'm confused. Why is illegally downloading necessary for archiving and listing composers and such? You can either do this though music you legally bought, or by ripping CDs using a free program like iTunes (which is what I use for organization, composers, lyrics, etc.)
 
@The Flash: I also archive my music and have the composers all listed in all my songs only computer. But these are songs that I bought legally, most from iTunes and a few from Amazon MP3, as well as Brave New World and Dance of Death which I ripped from CDs (those albums are not available in iTunes/Amazon).

So I guess I'm confused. Why is illegally downloading necessary for archiving and listing composers and such? You can either do this though music you legally bought, or by ripping CDs using a free program like iTunes (which is what I use for organization, composers, lyrics, etc.)

Well I have original Maiden albums and the Maiden songs on my archive are the ones I ripped from the original CD, just like you.

But I have no money to spend on other albums, sadly. I'd be glad to spend money on good music and supporting artists that I love, but I am the one who needs support here. :D

(P.S. : iTunes does not sell music in my country, I think they'll open this segment in September)
 
I wonder if Hallowed be thy name can be pointed as one classical example of "musical intertext" like any Literary intertext. If there's no creation ex nihilo in Literature, maybe in music, borrowing words and transform everything into something new is not plagiarism by itself.
 
I wonder if Hallowed be thy name can be pointed as one classical example of "musical intertext" like any Literary intertext. If there's no creation ex nihilo in Literature, maybe in music, borrowing words and transform everything into something new is not plagiarism by itself.
Isn't that what rap does?
And I'm pretty sure the "borrowed" artist gets credit and royalties.
 
A few points on piracy, which I am opposed to.

I do not think the record companies are totally innocent in this. In the pre-internet days, they certainly did an excellent job of screwing over their customers with everything from price fixing to promoting "artists" with a decent single and an album full of crap. They certainly set up a scenerio where they deserved some backlash.
Beyond that though, piracy is still stealing in my mind. Albums were made with the intent that they be sold, at one point this was most bands primary source of income. I think people can still try to justify it, but it is outright theft. I really do not buy the "I cannot afford it" theory. There are plenty of things I would like to own, a much nicer car for example, but it does not give me the right to go to a Mercedes lot and drive off with a car without buying it, or sneak into a movie theater and watch a new release. The primary difference is that with music piracy, there is much less of a chance of getting caught.

At this point, most bands will do a preview of an album (legally) where you can stream the albun to see if it is worth buying, there are low cost and free legal streaming options available for catalog albums.
The practical effect of piracy on everyone should be entirely evident by the price of concert tickets. I used to go to a ton of arena shows when I was a teenager and tickets could be had for as low as $7/$10 for big acts for the cheap seats and $25-ish to be up front. They purpose of tours used to be to get people in to see a good show and hear the new music and go buy it. Now music is released as an excuse to go out on tour. You also see this in the set lists for the older bands (thankfully Maiden has not fully done this) as they know they are not going to sell jack for new albums, so you hear the "hits" at the expense of new music.

I am not sure suing fans that download songs is the answer, a better answer is to go harder after the torrent sites (but this requires international cooperation) and to go after ISPs that allow this traffic along with continuing to push services like Spotify/ITunes/Google Play/Amazon, etc to allow people to buy music at a reasonably price (personally, I prefer to buy a physical format, usually vinyl).

One of the larger issues IMO is that there is a new generation of people that think movies and music should be free, because it can be had for free and are rejecting the notion that you should actually pay for services and goods you receive.
 
...or sneak into a movie theater and watch a new release...

I just want to say that this is the best analogy I have seen before, since it shares the "you're not really hurting anyone" argument that is so often used to justify Internet piracy. The argument might go that showing the film costs the same whether 10 people are in the theater or 50, but in reality you are receiving a value without providing a value in exchange.
 
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