Colorado Batman incident

I agree that if you're having problems and are seeing a shrink then you probably should'nt have a gun. I'm all for a psyche evaluation before you are able to get a gun permit. And no everyone doesn't need a gun, however as much as you may disagree, it is my right as a U.S. citizen to own a firearm. People a lot better than me sacrificed everything to give me that right. Remember when Hitler, Stalin, or any other despot takes power one of the first things they do is to take the weapons away from the citizens. Like it or not an armed society is safer than an unarmed society.
 
I agree that if you're having problems and are seeing a shrink then you probably should'nt have a gun. I'm all for a psyche evaluation before you are able to get a gun permit. And no everyone doesn't need a gun, however as much as you may disagree, it is my right as a U.S. citizen to own a firearm. People a lot better than me sacrificed everything to give me that right. Remember when Hitler, Stalin, or any other despot takes power one of the first things they do is to take the weapons away from the citizens. Like it or not an armed society is safer than an unarmed society.

Why do you need a gun?
Why should you be guaranteed that as a right?
Do you think those who sacrificed their lives in wars actually did so to guarantee your right to have a gun?
What does Stalin's position on gun control, or Hitler's have to do with making you safer?
How is an armed society safer than an unarmed one?
 
I seriously doubt that the majority of illegal guns start as legal guns in the USA. Sorry but we're not the only country that manufactues them.

Would you like the statistics? They come from the ATF and the FBI. http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf
It is a partisan report, but the numbers are very, very real.

Yes, the USA is not the only country that makes guns, but it is by far the largest small arms manufacturer in the world. Most major international gun manufacturers (Glock, H&K, Browning) make their US guns in the USA. Glock manufactures all their North American weapons in Georgia, for example. So you can seriously doubt things all you want, but numbers don't lie.

My point is that if you ban people from having guns, the only people you will be banning are the responsible people. Criminals will pay no heed to the ban.

Clean the shit out of your ears. I've never said that people should be banned from having guns. I've said that certain classes of firearms are unnecessary for civilian ownership. I don't want to take guns away from people who are responsible. I think that concealed carry permits cause more problems than they solve, but that's also a different argument. I just think that the sale of automatic weapons and assault rifles should be banned, 100%. People don't need them.

People who look at reasonable requests for gun restrictions and hear "OMG THEY WANT MY GUNS" are part of the fucking problem. Nobody wants to take guns away. That's stupid and unconstitutional. They want to put legitimate safety restrictions on US gun culture.

And no everyone doesn't need a gun, however as much as you may disagree, it is my right as a U.S. citizen to own a firearm.

Nobody has suggested it isn't. The Supreme Court has agreed. What they haven't agreed is that the Second Amendment constitutes a right to own whatsoever weapon you see fit. It is, like all other rights, regulated carefully by restrictions on what you can and cannot do. They have also ruled that assault rifle bans are 100% constitutional. The right to bear arms is not an unlimited right. It means you have the right to own certain classes of weapons in a manner the government chooses to regulate. My personal opinion is meaningless here. The SCOTUS has already decided this.

Remember when Hitler, Stalin, or any other despot takes power one of the first things they do is to take the weapons away from the citizens.

This is a complete fabrication. Hitler came into power in 1933, but did not alter Germany's gun control laws until 1938. The 1938 Weapons Act made it easier for Germans to own guns, but stripped Jews of the rights to own guns. However, this did not mean the Jews couldn't defend themselves - ghettoization was already going on, and the Jews had lost so many rights that they couldn't really do anything. Besides, a pistol wouldn't have stopped the SS. It wouldn't even had made them blink. When the Jews did shoot back (and sometimes they did) it just meant they died earlier.

Again, Stalin came into power in 1925; Lenin in 1917. Guns weren't restricted in the USSR until 1929. Records are very scattered, but most Russians outside of the cities owned a gun - usually a hunting rifle. Again, gun control wasn't really the problem here. Stalin established himself through the party apparatus, and fighting off the Soviet government was simply impossible. You can't stop that sort of power when you're just a village in the middle of nowhere. You can win one engagement, but then the NKVD shows up and murder you all.

Red Dawn, for reference, is a fantasy, not fact.
 
. Like it or not an armed society is safer than an unarmed society.

No it isn't. I just said the USA have the higher tax of homicides in the Western World. Now. i understand the importance of the US constitution, but sometimes modern constitutions have stupid articles. One citizen carrying a gun like a mobile phone is ridiculous.

The rate of private gun ownership in the United States is 88.8 firearms per 100 people
The rate of private gun ownership in Germany is 30.3firearms per 100 people

In the United States, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is 2009: 2.98
In Germany, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is 2010: 0.2
 
No it isn't. I just said the USA have the higher tax of homicides in the Western World. Now. i understand the importance of the US constitution, but sometimes modern constitutions have stupid articles. One citizen carrying a gun like a mobile phone is ridiculous.

The rate of private gun ownership in the United States is 88.8 firearms per 100 people
The rate of private gun ownership in Germany is 30.3firearms per 100 people

In the United States, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is 2009: 2.98
In Germany, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is 2010: 0.2

Pretty much as above.

There's some more general statistics on wikipedia but they are more out of date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
From those pages England/Wales (my residency) - 6.2guns per 100,000. Homicides 0.07

Both more recent and because Wikipedia is frequently questioned: http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/over-9000-murders-by-gun-in-us-39-in-uk.html

The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita over all. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 48 times fewer than in the US.
 
I don't know what measurement you would or could use as a qualifier score for the psyche evaluation for someone to get a gun permit, someone smarter than me can figure that out. And I don't need to clean the shit out of ears, I know that noone on this board has suggested taking away my guns. However if you have watched and read the liberal leaning media in this country you would know that unfortunately anytine one of these incidents occur (Columbine, VA tech, etc.) that's the first so called solution that they start screaming about. As for Red Dawn, yeah it's a fantasy but more important as far as I'm concerned it was a pretty shitty movie. We seem to have a difference of opinion and that's fine. Anybody is welcomed to my house if they come as friends, if on the other hand they come for other purposes we'll deal with it
 
And no everyone doesn't need a gun, however as much as you may disagree, it is my right as a U.S. citizen to own a firearm. People a lot better than me sacrificed everything to give me that right. Remember when Hitler, Stalin, or any other despot takes power one of the first things they do is to take the weapons away from the citizens. Like it or not an armed society is safer than an unarmed society.

Yeah I know its your right as a US citizen, and I think it shouldn't be. A lot of US citizens agree with me on that one too. Your constitution simply needs to be updated, its not that big of a deal.

And no, an armed society is not safer than an unarmed society, thats the biggest bollocks I've heard in quite a while. We up in Sweden are doing just fine without guns in the hands of the masses, thank you very much.

The rate of private gun ownership in Sweden is 31.6 firearms per 100 people.
In Sweden, annual firearm homicides total in 2010: 18
In Sweden, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is (in 2008): 1.5

This website is extremely enlightening when it comes to gun stats: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/sweden
 
If nobody suggested taking your guns away, stop acting like that's the solution that's been put forward, then I won't tell you to clean the shit out of your ears.

However if you have watched and read the liberal leaning media in this country you would know that unfortunately anytine one of these incidents occur (Columbine, VA tech, etc.) that's the first so called solution that they start screaming about.

1. The American media is one of the most conservative in the western world, as it is dominated by corporate interests and doesn't have a state news service like the BBC or CBC. Some print media is fairly liberal (NY Times), but two of the major three television networks (Fox News and CNN) are very conservative and fairly conservative.

2. Maybe there's a reason for that - because half of Americans support the idea of better gun control, and half of them don't. The other reason, of course, is that tight gun control works everywhere else in the western world.
 
1. The American media is one of the most conservative in the western world, as it is dominated by corporate interests and doesn't have a state news service like the BBC or CBC. Some print media is fairly liberal (NY Times), but two of the major three television networks (Fox News and CNN) are very conservative and fairly conservative.

This. What is considered liberal in the States would be quite conservative here. What is considered conservative there would be... well, I'll not Godwin this thread.
 
Laws are made to be unmade and remade. Something written a couple of hundred years ago shouldn't be more relevant than something that can be drawn up today. It well past time for USA to change its gun laws. The fewer people that have guns the better.
 
First of all Crimson Idol, why should I have my guns taken away. I have no criminal record, I've had proper training through classes that are offered by the local sherrif's department along with growing up around guns my entire life due to my father, and I paid for my permit and went through the required background check and waiting period. As I stated earlier I do not carry any firearms on me when I am out in public, although for the record I do not have any problems with any conceal/carry laws I just choose not to carry. Knowing what I've said can you give me one good reason, outside of your personal bias/feelings, why I should have my guns taken away.

LooseCannon: If the U.S media is what you consider to be the most conservative, then I would hate to see what you consider to be a liberal media. Granted I'll give you that Fox news is conservative but CNN,CNBC, NBC,CBS,ABC, and too many papers are extremely liberally slanted. I consider myself to be more independent than anything else and for all our medias faults/problems I for one am glad that they are not state run/backed by the goverment like the BBC or the CBC which I sometimes watch on satelite and enjoy hearing a different perspective on things. And I'm sorry to disagree with you but if half the american public really supported more gun control up to the complete out lawing of them, then there would've already been movement within the individual states to start the process to enact a new amendment to the constitution. Yes we can and have done that before, that's how our constitution has been changed/upgraded since it was first written.

My feelings about guns and gun control are own, I claim to speak for noone but myself. Sorry if you disagree that's o.k. If you have a problem with my beliefs well tough. In all my years, and there's quite a few of them I can honestly say that I have never infringed upon somebody else's rights or beliefs. I may not agree or subscribe to them but to each their own. My ownership of guns is just another tool to have to stop somebody from infringing on my rights.
 
LooseCannon: If the U.S media is what you consider to be the most conservative, then I would hate to see what you consider to be a liberal media. Granted I'll give you that Fox news is conservative but CNN,CNBC, NBC,CBS,ABC, and too many papers are extremely liberally slanted. I consider myself to be more independent than anything else and for all our medias faults/problems I for one am glad that they are not state run/backed by the goverment like the BBC or the CBC which I sometimes watch on satelite and enjoy hearing a different perspective on things. And I'm sorry to disagree with you but if half the american public really supported more gun control up to the complete out lawing of them, then there would've already been movement within the individual states to start the process to enact a new amendment to the constitution. Yes we can and have done that before, that's how our constitution has been changed/upgraded since it was first written.

Dude, I don't rank what is a liberal/conservative media. There's huge international watchdogs that do. The BBC is generally considered the finest news source in the entire world, and for very, very good reasons. Other ones that are highly considered include the CBC, Al Jazeera, and Reuters. Notice how no American companies are considered there. Of US papers, only the NY Times generally is considered in the top echelon in this day and age. I wouldn't mind if Fox News's commentators were conservative if they reported facts. That's why there's no Fox News in Canada - it's illegal to lie on the air here, and they were rejected because of it.

CNN is a corporate news station. It's not really liberal, it's not really conservative. It reports on what business wants it to report on. MSNBC has a liberal bias. All three stations are garbage, if you ask me, and that's why I get my news from a variety of sources - BBC, CBC, Reuters, Al Jazeera, NY Times, Guardian are all sources I read daily.

Anyway. Would you like to see some polls? http://www.people-press.org/2012/07/30/views-on-gun-laws-unchanged-after-aurora-shooting/
47 % of Americans want more gun control. 46% don't. So there you go. Facts. The reason why a Constitutional convention hasn't been undertaken is because it takes 75% of the several States to do so. So you'd need way more than this percentage to amend the US Constitution.
 
Knowing what I've said can you give me one good reason, outside of your personal bias/feelings, why I should have my guns taken away.

Because the vast majority of people owning guns have also had such checks etc, and yet these incidents are still occurring... so it's apparently not enough? Yes, you can say you are not likely to do such a thing yourself - I can say that too - but ultimately WITHOUT a gun you CANNOT do this, rather than just 'UNLIKELY'. You can be as responsible as you want but the only sure fire way, is to not have the gun to begin with. It won't prevent everyone, but it will prevent the majority.

Statistics across the world support this, which is incredibly opposite to your claim an armed society is safer... so yes, I think they should be revoked.

Oh, and you've grown up around guns? That really doesn't paint a very responsible picture of anyone involved.
 
As this thread has turned into a missive on gun control, here is a true story:

My wife and I met my brother-in-law's fiancee (now wife) a few years ago at a restaurant in Chicago. She is from a small town in Alabama, grew up deeply religious and conservative, went to Auburn for college because U. of Alabama was too liberal. The subject of the conversation eventually turned to her guns. She said that my brother-in-law always calls first shortly before coming home, so she knows it is him at the door rather than a burglar. The reason he does this is so she doesn't shoot him. She admits to being a "shoot first, ask questions later" believer when it comes to home invasions (I don't disagree, btw). She mentioned her "guns" -- plural -- and I innocently asked how many she had. She said five. Five guns in one apartment. She doesn't hunt. Nor is she a drug dealer. These guns are simply for self-defense. Then, she dropped this gem: "Alabama just passed a law that you have to register all your guns, even if you already owned them for years. So, I guess I have to get my guns registered. Well, two or three of them, anyway. I want to keep a couple unregistered because I don't want the government to know that I have them." Upon leaving the dinner, I told my wife that I liked her brother's fiancee, but that she was bat-shit crazy. My wife agreed.

No grand message to this story, draw what conclusions you will, I just thought it was funny. For what it is worth, the woman in question has turned out to be a very nice person and I would trust my kids to stay with her.
 
I feel very fortunate to live in a place - real or perceived - where I do not feel any sound at the door comes with the possibility of a significant threat to my personal safety.
 
I feel very fortunate to live in a place - real or perceived - where I do not feel any sound at the door comes with the possibility of a significant threat to my personal safety.

I feel that way, too, and I live in L.A.! Don't forget, the woman in the story is bat-shit crazy.
 
I feel that way, too, and I live in L.A.! Don't forget, the woman in the story is bat-shit crazy.

Maiden.c.indiana has given no indication he's batshit crazy, but he seems to share, at least partially, her mindset.
 
This thread has made it sound as if the US is a super dangerous place to live in, where strangers can't be trusted, and where sounds at doors are meant to be greeted with machine guns...it sounds like a warzone. I know I lived in probably the most liberal state in the country (MA) for 5 years but it really wasn't anything like this. :blink:
 
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