Classic cinema - thoughts and questions

[Forostar]

Some issues can only get across when you hit people over the head with it, especially in that time.
I am very curious to see this film, and some other Poitier films as well. Very intriguing actor, one of my favourites.

By the way have you seen this? Very impressive speech by Sidney Poitier accepting an Honarary Award.

 

[bearfan]

Portier is a is a great actor, I would not turn down a chance to see any of his movies.  I am not so sure about needing to hit people over the head, in this file I think they did a great job of getting their point across by the actions of the characters to the point where it would allow people to reach their own conclusion, then needlessly dropped the hammer.  I always have been of the opinion that a point will stick better if someone reaches that opinion on their own.  The TV show All in the Family did an effective job of that IMO.

It is not nearly as bad as Gregory Peck in Gentleman's Agreement (1947), a movie  about anti-semitism in the US, that is way over the top to the point where it ruins the film.

 

[Forostar]

I disagree with your opinion on the Peck film. Fantastic. It very painfully showed a deeply integrated problem, post(!) war.

 

[bearfan]

I fully agree with the problem the film was trying to expose .. and it was timely ... I think a lot of Americans justified post-war anti-semitism as "well, we might keep them out of the country club, but we are not doing what the Nazis did"/"A lot of us died to save them, what more do they want"  and that was all clearly wrong, I just think Peck overplayed it in the context of a film 

I am saying that as a film critique, certainly not as an issue with the message itself.

 

[Forostar]

Well, you can't expect Peck to act like he doesn't care. That'd be ridiculous. 

He showed feelings any discriminated person might experience from inside. I think he did that very well.
Maybe you have trouble with the idea that every point about prejudice has been made with superior illustration and graphic demonstration? The whole thing gets very intense, was it getting a bit too much for you? I mean, I can understand that shame for such a dark period might play a role as well, when watching something like this.

In real life the feelings of a discriminated person may go unnoticed but when you want to want to show a problem on film, you need to go from the inside to the outside a bit more, and you can only do that by showing feelings e.g. frustration and desperation, in an intense manner.

Man, that hotel scene was classic!  

 

[bearfan]

I'll have to watch it again to get the context of a few scenes I had in mind, but I went away from that movie feeling I have just had a lecture and was taken out of the movie by it.  It is certainly possible to show disgust as a situation/have a conversation about it without breaking out of the movie.  Rope was made the following year, not wanting to give away anything

Spoiler

... look at how Jimmy Stewart handled the was his theories were used, it was obvious he was disgusted and handled it in a move believeable way what drew me further into the movie, verus almost calling a time out to tell the audience why discrimination is bad, then resuming the film.

 

[Forostar]

Interesting, I think I understand what you mean.

However, what I find different is that in Rope Stewart is

Spoiler

busy with solving a crime, he feels something has happened and gets closer, and closer, while still being careful and in control.

He isn't as frustrated and desperate as Peck's character is in Gentleman's Agreement, who can't "solve" this issue.

Spoiler

Everything goes worse, even his marriage! So I understand why Peck's character was more outspoken than Stewart's.

 

[bearfan]

They certainly were different movies, but I think Rope was more effective in making a similar point. 

Spoiler

It showed that promoting certain ideas under the air of authority (a professor) in this case can be taken seriously and lead to actions being taken on those ideas.  I assume Stewart was a stand in for philosophers like HS Chamberlain, etc that founded a later basis for Nazi-ism.  But it did so in a more "normal" conversational manner.  Peck's portrayal just seemed forced to me. 

 

[Forostar]

Forced or not,

Still I'd like to emphasize that not only were these different movies (and I doubt if they were trying to make the same points, because the idea that one might murder someone just to prove that one could, wasn't so deeply rooted in US culture as antisemitism; the huge difference was the mass effect of discrimination, which might look less extreme but had impact on a much larger scale), Peck's and Stewart's roles were totally different as well. Peck was a victim, Stewart wasn't. Logical that one character needs to act different in different situations.

Rough comparisons between these films (my 2 cents):
Rope is one of my most favourite pictures, but not because of the point it was trying to make. I wasn't so busy with that. How masterful this film (experiment!) was made and how suspenseful it was. That was very striking.

IMO Gentleman's Agreement was less good (but hey, zillions of films are less ), but at the same time I think it had a stronger and more actual message, which came across by illustrating terribly painful situations.

If it felt like a lecture (or came across as being moralistic), well: the lecture was needed back then. No problem with it whatsoever. Some things can't be stressed enough to show they are wrong (see my earlier reaction on your view on To Sir, With Love.

 

[bearfan]

I pretty much agree with what you say, my problem with Gentleman's Agreement is based on it as a movie, not on the message.  I have zero problem with the message itself, just how it was delivered in the context of a movie.  I think Rope was probably more effective in delivering a message, becasue it did it in a more subtle way and in a way where a viewer could place onesself in that room where the movie took place ... Rope delivered a message without spending the entire movie saying "I am delivering a message"  You could discuss Rope in the context of how words have meanings, can you yell fire in a theater, how to balance speech versus actions, is Stewart responsible

Spoiler

for people acting on his words

, etc.  With Gentleman's Agreement, the takeaway is "discrimination is bad"

It is a fair point that Stewart was not the victim and he would act differently, but there was a victim in Rope as well

Spoiler

though obviously he did not act being in a trunk

 

[Forostar]

You're correct on the subtlety in Rope. I am actually glad that the message wasn't more dominant because it would be distracting.

I only keep wondering how more subtlety in Gentlemen's Agreement would look like (and I am afraid that the film would be less shocking).

Anyway, nice with you to discuss these oldies. If I may ask, have you already answered (some of) the questions I asked in the opening post? I am curious about your answers.  

 

[bearfan]

Will give it a try

1. What are your favorite films?
Hard to choose, there are so many.  But Vertigo, Empire Strikes Back, Patton, Shadow of a Doubt, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Young Frankenstein, Caddyshack, and Clerks all come to mind. 

2. Do you also appreciate older films? Which ones?
Yes,  there are some in the list above, I will add Key Largo, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Bataan, Citizen Kane, Touch of Evil come to mind.

3. Do you have favorite directors?
Hitchcock, Ford, Spielberg

4. Do you have favorite actors?
Harrison Ford,  Jimmy Stewart, Grace Kelly, Bill Murray,  Sean Connery, Bette Davis, I am sure I am leaving some out

5. Which genres do you prefer?
Sci-Fi, Action/Adventure, Comedy, Noir, most anything really .. not a super big fan of westerns in general, but good movies are good movies despite a genre.

 

[Forostar]

Will give it a try

Cheers!

1. What are your favorite films?
Hard to choose, there are so many.  But Vertigo, Empire Strikes Back, Patton, Shadow of a Doubt, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Young Frankenstein, Caddyshack, and Clerks all come to mind.  

Nice Hitch picks! Haven't seen the last three you mention. Must confess I haven never heard of the last two.  
All post 1960s comedies or something?

2. Do you also appreciate older films? Which ones?
Yes,  there are some in the list above, I will add Key Largo, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Bataan, Citizen Kane, Touch of Evil come to mind.

I found Key Largo not that great, I have seen many better Bogart (and "hostage" films in general) films, and a lot (and when I say a lot, I really mean a lot) of more exciting film noirs (imo that is of course). Also I had high expectations of Touch of Evil (because it was rated high in the IMDb and because it was Orson Wells). The last scene is very good but the rest of the film lacked tension, I thought. I waited all the time til something was going to happen.

From that list I'd probably pick Treasure as my favourite.

3. Do you have favorite directors?
Hitchcock, Ford, Spielberg

I'd go for Hitchcock and Kurosawa and right after that probably Fritz Lang.

4. Do you have favorite actors?
Harrison Ford,  Jimmy Stewart, Grace Kelly, Bill Murray,  Sean Connery, Bette Davis, I am sure I am leaving some out

Stewart is one of my all time favourites as well.

5. Which genres do you prefer?
Sci-Fi, Action/Adventure, Comedy, Noir, most anything really .. not a super big fan of westerns in general, but good movies are good movies despite a genre.

Well, then the immediate question arises: did you see the Westerns James Stewart did (esp. the ones with Anthony Mann stand out! -> check more on that here ; also I am curious if you have seen all the other Stewart films I mentioned  <- ), since he is one of your favourite actors? These Westerns are partly the reason why he is my favourite actor, so who knows you might appreciate these as well.

 

[bearfan]

Clerks (1994) was Kevin Smith's first movie, he hocked his Laser Disc collection to come up with the funds to make it.  A real low buget movie about a convinence store and movie rental store clerks.  Excellent movie IMO,  Chasing Amy is also a good movie by Smith.

Caddyshack (1980) has to be one of the most widely quoted comedies in the US ever, Bill Murray, Chevy Chase, Ted Knight, and Rodney Dangerfield starred in it.  Incredibly funny movie.  Caddyshack II on the other hand, has to be one of the worst movies ever.

I'll need to re-look at my noir picks, I know there are better ones than I listed.  My wife and I usually watch them during the winter .. might sound odd, but they seem better when the sun is down and a fireplace is going in the house.  Right away, I would add Sunset Boulavard to the list, great acting in that.  Young Frankensteing is a great Mel Brooks movie IMO, on par with Blazing Saddles IMO.  When I was young, we were in one of the first areas to get cable  (San Diego in the late 70s), they played that movie over and over, I think I must have watched it and Mel Brooks Silent Movie at least once a week for months on end. 


Fritz Lange is a great call.  I thimk "M" was the last movie by his that I saw.

Speaking of German films, I started watching some DEFA films a few years ago (will need to dig out the titles),  Born in 1945 stands out as a good one. Have you seen any of those that you would recommend?

Are there any Stewart Westerns you would recommend, I doubt I have seen many (if any). 

 

[Forostar]

Currently watching He Ran All the Way with John Garfield & Shelley Winters...

Bearfan, I'll get back to your post more extensively tomorrow.

 

[Forostar]

Caddyshack (1980) has to be one of the most widely quoted comedies in the US ever, Bill Murray, Chevy Chase, Ted Knight, and Rodney Dangerfield starred in it.  Incredibly funny movie.  Caddyshack II on the other hand, has to be one of the worst movies ever.

Alright! From that era, I personally liked Stripes a lot.

Fritz Lange is a great call.  I thimk "M" was the last movie by his that I saw.

May sound strange but I like his American films more. Some great film noirs. The Woman in the Window is for me one of the best in the genre, and one of my favourite movies overall.

Speaking of German films, I started watching some DEFA films a few years ago (will need to dig out the titles),  Born in 1945 stands out as a good one. Have you seen any of those that you would recommend?

I am not very acquainted with DEFA films, but this one is on our wishlist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_M%C3%B ... _Unter_Uns

Are there any Stewart Westerns you would recommend, I doubt I have seen many (if any).  

Yes sir, with pleasure. Here an overview of must see James Stewart films (non-Hitchcock because I assume you have seen them), check them all out, if you haven't. The westerns are in blue, and the Westerns directed by Anthony Mann are in bold letters. James Stewart starred in five classic Western films by director Anthony Mann. In all five, he plays a man who is haunted by the past. The films are famous for their groundbreaking use of the landscape to portray the characters' feelings. Mann once said, "When you're filming a Western, people don't want to see the inside of a cabin."


Essential James Stewart films (non-Hitchcock):

You Can't Take It with You (1938)
Comedy, directed by Frank Capra. Won two Academy Awards from seven nominations:
Best Picture and Best Director for Frank Capra. Color: Black and White.
The cast includes Jean Arthur, Lionel Barrymore and Edward Arnold.

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939)
Drama film (though to be honest; also lots of comedy) about one man's effect on American politics. Directed by Frank Capra.
Nominated for 11 Academy Awards, winning for Best Original Story. Color: Black and White.
The cast includes Jean Arthur, Claude Rains and Edward Arnold.

The Shop Around the Corner (1940)
Comedy film directed by Ernst Lubitsch. Color: Black and White.
The cast includes Margaret Sullavan.

It's a Wonderful Life (1946)
Comedy/drama film directed by Frank Capra.
The cast includes Lionel Barrymore. Color: Black and White.
Nominated for five Oscars without winning any, although the film has since been recognized by the American Film Institute as one of the 100 best American films ever made, and placed number one on their list of the most inspirational American films of all time.

Call Northside 777 (1948)
Documentary-style film noir directed by Henry Hathaway and the only film noir Stewart did.
The cast includes Richard Conte and Lee J. Cobb. Color: Black and White.

Winchester '73 (1950)

Western film directed by Anthony Mann. Color: Black and White.
The cast includes Shelley Winters and Dan Duryea.

Broken Arrow (1950)
Western film directed by Delmer Daves. Color: Color.
Nominated for three Academy Awards, and won a Golden Globe award for Best Film Promoting International Understanding. It made history as the first major Western since the Second World War to portray the Indians sympathetically.

Harvey (1950)  
Fantasy/comedy film directed by Henry Koster. The story is about a man whose best friend is a pooka named Harvey—in the form of a six-foot, three-and-one-half-inch tall rabbit. Color: Black and White. Josephine Hull's performance earned her an Academy Award as Best Supporting Actress; Stewart's portrayal earned him a Best Actor Oscar nomination. Stewart later declared in an interview that Hull had the most difficult role in the film, since she had to believe and not believe in the invisible rabbit... at the same time. This film was ranked #35 on AFI's 100 Years... 100 Laughs. In June 2008, AFI revealed its "10 Top 10"—the best ten films in ten "classic" American film genres—after polling over 1,500 people from the creative community. Harvey was acknowledged as the seventh best film in the fantasy genre.

Bend of the River (1952)
Western film directed by Anthony Mann. Color: Color.
In 2008, Bend of the River was nominated for AFI's Top 10 Western Films list.

The Naked Spur (1953)
Western film directed by Anthony Mann. Color: Color.
The screenplay was written by Sam Rolfe and Harold Jack Bloom, and was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay - a rare honor for a Western.
The cast includes Janet Leigh and Robert Ryan.

The Far Country (1954)
Western film directed by Anthony Mann. Color: Color.
It is one of a handful of Westerns, along with North to Alaska, to be set (not filmed) in Alaska.
The cast includes Ruth Roman and Walter Brennan.

The Man from Laramie (1955)

Western film directed by Anthony Mann. Color: Color.

Night Passage (1957)
Western film directed by James Neilson. Color: Color.
This film is reminiscent of the popular Western collaborations between Stewart and director Anthony Mann. This is largely because the project was slated to be their sixth collaboration. Mann backed out of the project before production due to other obligations and a disagreement over the casting of Audie Murphy. Aaron Rosenberg, who produced many of the Stewart-Mann collaborations, stayed on as producer with new director James Neilson. The film was the first to utilize the Technirama process by Technicolor. This process helped make the blue skies crisper and brighten the autumn footage photographed by cinematographer William H. Daniels.
The cast includes Brandon De Wilde and Dan Duryea.

Anatomy of a Murder (1959)

Courtroom crime drama film directed by Otto Preminger. Color: Black and White.
The cast includes George C. Scott. This was one of the first mainstream Hollywood films to address sex and rape in graphic terms. It includes one of Saul Bass's most celebrated title sequences, an innovative musical score by Duke Ellington (who plays a character called Pie-Eye in the film) and has been described by a law professor as "probably the finest pure trial movie ever made".

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)
Western film directed by John Ford. My favourite Ford Western. Cast includes John Wayne, Vera Miles, Lee Marvin and Edmond O'Brien. Color: Black and White.
The film was shot in black-and-white on Paramount sound stages, which was quite a contrast with Ford's other films of the period such as The Searchers which included vast western exteriors and color photography. Both at the heights of their careers, James Stewart and John Wayne, lined up to work together for the first time. Stewart was given top billing over Wayne in the film's posters and previews, but in the film itself Wayne has top billing. Their names are displayed on pictures of signposts, one after the other, with Wayne's name shown first. The film was an instant hit when released in April 1962, thanks to its classic story and popular stars John Wayne and James Stewart. The film was nominated for Best Costume Design Edith Head, one of the few westerns to ever be nominated for the award.

Shenandoah (1965)
Civil War/Western film directed by Andrew V. McLaglen. Color: Color.
Though set during the American Civil War, the film's strong antiwar and humanitarian themes resonated with audiences in later years as attitudes began to change toward the Vietnam War. Upon its release, the film was praised for its message, as well as its technical production.
In view of the decidedly anti-war tone of this film, and that of the character of Charlie Anderson, it is worth noting that James Stewart was a brigadier general in the US Air Force Reserve at the time of its filming, and had been a decorated bomber pilot and squadron commander in World War II; he would fly as an observer and additional pilot on one B-52 mission in Vietnam as part of his reserve duty a year after the film's release.
Stewart's own son Ronald (adopted from his wife's first marriage) would be killed in action in Vietnam as a US Marine Corps officer a few years later.
The anti-Vietnam War connection was not made by the average moviegoer at the time of the film's release in 1965. The beginning of the American ground war in Vietnam is generally considered to be March 8, 1965, when 3,500 United States Marines were dispatched to South Vietnam. During this initial period, U.S. public opinion overwhelmingly supported the deployment. Anti-war sentiments were still several years away.

The Flight of the Phoenix (1965)
Drama film directed by Robert Aldrich. Cast includes Peter Finch, Ernest Borgnine and Dan Duryea.
Nominated for two Academy Awards: Ian Bannen for Supporting Actor and Michael Luciano for Film Editing.
Color: Color.


Enjoy  !

 

[bearfan]

Thanks for the suggestions.  I have seen a few of those (Mr. Smith, Wonderful Life, Can't Take it With You, and Harvey).  I'll have to pick up the rest.

 

[Perun]

Speaking of German films, I started watching some DEFA films a few years ago (will need to dig out the titles),  Born in 1945 stands out as a good one. Have you seen any of those that you would recommend?

There are a few DEFA westerns (dubbed "Indianerfilme") about American Indian tribes that were produced in rivalry to both American westerns and West German Karl May films that were wildly popular in the sixties. Some of those are astonishing in their historical accuracy, although you can probably imagine the film makers perferred topics about the Indians being victims to American imperialism. They are quite lavishly produced and better than you'd think.

 

[bearfan]

Thanks Perun, I will add those to the lust.  I have a general interest in East Germany/Eastern Europe post WWII.  A while back, I watched Goodbye Lenin, which I thought was a fantastic movie.  That is when I started to become interested in the DEFA films, I take them with a bit of a grain of salt as there was obviously a propaganda element behind them (though that does not mean there were not good movies).

If there are any other films along the lines of Goodbye Lenin that deal with the reunification or films made after the reunification that take place in the former East Germany,, that you would recomment, I would appreciate it.

I will be seeing Nuremberg: It's Lesson for Today when it comes to Dallas next month (Oct 14 to 20)

http://www.nurembergfilm.org/

Looks interesting, it has gotten excellent reviews.

 

[Perun]

If there are any other films along the lines of Goodbye Lenin that deal with the reunification or films made after the reunification that take place in the former East Germany,, that you would recomment, I would appreciate it.

Sonnenallee is one dealing with youths in East Berlin in the early 1970s. It was criticised pretty much because it showed that people weren't always only unhappy there, although it is still pretty critical of the system as a whole.