Brave New World - Album

[Eddie's Uncle]

I don't think so either, but recording, mixing and other production values can definitely underline various aspects of a song, e.g punchiness of the riffs or levels, dynamics & power of the rhythmic department. That, along with Bruce's capabilities as a vocalist make the "VXI leftovers" on BNW sound a lot more punchy, even if they step into a couple of familiar pitfalls - most notably repetition.

Production having no meaning for the quality of songs? With all respect, this is bollocks, at least as a general opinion (in some cases it may be somewhat correct), and EVERY professional musician will tell you otherwise. Sure, the best production can not turn a bad song into a good one, but a bad production can make the best song much worse. Your point would also mean that producers are completely irrelevant.

As for BNW, it is one of the better production jobs post Martin Birch, imho. Definitely better than Steves home production.

Musically, it is a step up from VXI, and my personal post reunion fave. In their discography, it ranks in the middle tier. Some awesome smashers, lots of repetitive painting by numbers. Good album, no less, but also nothing more.

 

[Eddie's Uncle]

You’re comparing apples to oranges. BNW was a massive landmark in metal in the early 2000s because it was the definitive comeback record from a band regrouping with a former singer.

Are you really implying BNW had he same impact for the 2000s as Painkiller did for the 90s?
I really don't see any evidence for this. Yes, Bruce returning was a huge thing. But that was not so much tied to the album itself. Painkiller still regularly gets voted/polled as one of the greatest metal albums of all time. In such lists, BNW usually never even is mentioned, let alone anywhere near the top. How many bands have covered songs off Painkiller, how many have covered off BNW?
How many musicians said "hearing Painkiller for the first time blew my mind and made me picking up a guitar", and how many times have you heard the same quote about BNW?
BNW had an impact when it came out, but it's lasting longevity in importance formthe genre is nowhere near Painkiller.

 

[srfc]

Are you really implying BNW had he same impact for the 2000s as Painkiller did for the 90s?
I really don't see any evidence for this. Yes, Bruce returning was a huge thing. But that was not so much tied to the album itself. Painkiller still regularly gets voted/polled as one of the greatest metal albums of all time. In such lists, BNW usually never even is mentioned, let alone anywhere near the top. How many bands have covered songs off Painkiller, how many have covered off BNW?
How many musicians said "hearing Painkiller for the first time blew my mind and made me picking up a guitar", and how many times have you heard the same quote about BNW?
BNW had an impact when it came out, but it's lasting longevity in importance formthe genre is nowhere near Painkiller.

Painkiller is definitely a great record, but I'm not sure any of it's impact and reputation is specific to the 90s music scene. I was a teenager getting into metal in the 90s and it had absolutely no impact on what any bands were doing at the time. Whereas, Bruce rejoining Maiden and the success of BNW killed nu-metal.

 

[Diesel 11]

Are you really implying BNW had he same impact for the 2000s as Painkiller did for the 90s?

No, I meant that BNW and Painkiller are very different records from very different eras that had very different impacts in the metal world and thus shouldn’t be compared against each other.

Painkiller was proof that a band on a downward spiral could recapture and even exceed the magic of their early days with a radical reimagining of their iconic sound (and the help of one new band member).

BNW meanwhile came out of a period where several singers were leaving their bands to mixed results. Judas Priest, for one, Anthrax, Iron Maiden. The ‘90s was a weird period for bands even beyond this, with Metallica and Megadeth going ‘soft’, Dio returning to Black Sabbath and then leaving again, first grunge and then nu metal taking over the mainstream. But come the end of the decade and Bruce and Adrian are rejoining Iron Maiden and new millennium, new you, here’s a brand new album that actually kicks fucking ass.

Compare what the two albums did for their bands. Painkiller was one of those 1990 records (think Rust in Peace and Seasons in the Abyss) that was sort of a last hurrah for the metal of the ‘80s before the Black Album, Pantera, and grunge changed the trajectory of the genre for the rest of the decade. There was no proper followup to Painkiller - it took Priest seven years to drop Jugulator and that was without Halford and with a lot of grunge and Pantera inspiration in the mix. Painkiller left a lasting impression for sure, it’s always going to be on more metal lists than BNW, but its biggest influence is on power metal, which is a less mainstream subgenre in general (although I’ll concede that I might have blinders on here because I’m from America lol).

BNW meanwhile was the first step in Maiden’s reconquering the globe. They proved there was gas in the tank with the new album, followed it up three years later with Dance of Death and then A Matter of Life and Death, plus went back to business touring the globe and putting their name back into people’s mouths. The ripples into the rest of the metal scene were pretty big too, and a lot of nu metal bands failed to survive in the wake. You can argue that no BNW means no Angel of Retribution. It was the right album at the right time.

All this is to say that while they are both comeback albums they are comebacks for very different reasons, born of different circumstances and that’s why my original comment from two years ago was just trying to say, why are you even comparing them? It’s a random comparison.

 

[dickinson1978]

No, I meant that BNW and Painkiller are very different records from very different eras that had very different impacts in the metal world and thus shouldn’t be compared against each other.

Painkiller was proof that a band on a downward spiral could recapture and even exceed the magic of their early days with a radical reimagining of their iconic sound (and the help of one new band member).

BNW meanwhile came out of a period where several singers were leaving their bands to mixed results. Judas Priest, for one, Anthrax, Iron Maiden. The ‘90s was a weird period for bands even beyond this, with Metallica and Megadeth going ‘soft’, Dio returning to Black Sabbath and then leaving again, first grunge and then nu metal taking over the mainstream. But come the end of the decade and Bruce and Adrian are rejoining Iron Maiden and new millennium, new you, here’s a brand new album that actually kicks fucking ass.

Compare what the two albums did for their bands. Painkiller was one of those 1990 records (think Rust in Peace and Seasons in the Abyss) that was sort of a last hurrah for the metal of the ‘80s before the Black Album, Pantera, and grunge changed the trajectory of the genre for the rest of the decade. There was no proper followup to Painkiller - it took Priest seven years to drop Jugulator and that was without Halford and with a lot of grunge and Pantera inspiration in the mix. Painkiller left a lasting impression for sure, it’s always going to be on more metal lists than BNW, but its biggest influence is on power metal, which is a less mainstream subgenre in general (although I’ll concede that I might have blinders on here because I’m from America lol).

BNW meanwhile was the first step in Maiden’s reconquering the globe. They proved there was gas in the tank with the new album, followed it up three years later with Dance of Death and then A Matter of Life and Death, plus went back to business touring the globe and putting their name back into people’s mouths. The ripples into the rest of the metal scene were pretty big too, and a lot of nu metal bands failed to survive in the wake. You can argue that no BNW means no Angel of Retribution. It was the right album at the right time.

All this is to say that while they are both comeback albums they are comebacks for very different reasons, born of different circumstances and that’s why my original comment from two years ago was just trying to say, why are you even comparing them? It’s a random comparison.

1.BNW
2.AMOLAD
3.SJ
4.FF
5.BOS
6.DoD

Thats my rank and i put BNW Behind seventh,notB,pom csit and powerslave

 

[el diablo]

In their discography, it ranks in the middle tier. Some awesome smashers, lots of repetitive painting by numbers. Good album, no less, but also nothing more.

That is my take as well. I like every song on the album, no 'skip' songs.
The sound is excellent and I appreciate the historical context.
But no BNW songs would rank in my top 20 IM songs.

 

[Eddie's Uncle]

Painkiller is definitely a great record, but I'm not sure any of it's impact and reputation is specific to the 90s music scene. I was a teenager getting into metal in the 90s and it had absolutely no impact on what any bands were doing at the time. Whereas, Bruce rejoining Maiden and the success of BNW killed nu-metal.

I strongly disagree. Nu Metal was big way into the 2000s, several years after BNW. Nu Metal had its commercial peak around that time, 2001 to 2004..That was the time when Disturbed and Slipknot emerged. It killed itself at the end of the decade, like any hyped fashion trend. BNW was Maiden's comeback but it definitely didn't kill Nu Metal (I wish it had, though).
Painkillers influence was huge on bands such as Hammerfall and Gamma Ray, who later re-established traditional Metal around the millennium. I would even speculate: Painkiller was important for the traditional Metal revival, which in turn was the basis for the success of BNW.

 

[Eddie's Uncle]

No, I meant that BNW and Painkiller are very different records from very different eras that had very different impacts in the metal world and thus shouldn’t be compared against each other.

Painkiller was proof that a band on a downward spiral could recapture and even exceed the magic of their early days with a radical reimagining of their iconic sound (and the help of one new band member).

BNW meanwhile came out of a period where several singers were leaving their bands to mixed results. Judas Priest, for one, Anthrax, Iron Maiden. The ‘90s was a weird period for bands even beyond this, with Metallica and Megadeth going ‘soft’, Dio returning to Black Sabbath and then leaving again, first grunge and then nu metal taking over the mainstream. But come the end of the decade and Bruce and Adrian are rejoining Iron Maiden and new millennium, new you, here’s a brand new album that actually kicks fucking ass.

Compare what the two albums did for their bands. Painkiller was one of those 1990 records (think Rust in Peace and Seasons in the Abyss) that was sort of a last hurrah for the metal of the ‘80s before the Black Album, Pantera, and grunge changed the trajectory of the genre for the rest of the decade. There was no proper followup to Painkiller - it took Priest seven years to drop Jugulator and that was without Halford and with a lot of grunge and Pantera inspiration in the mix. Painkiller left a lasting impression for sure, it’s always going to be on more metal lists than BNW, but its biggest influence is on power metal, which is a less mainstream subgenre in general (although I’ll concede that I might have blinders on here because I’m from America lol).

BNW meanwhile was the first step in Maiden’s reconquering the globe. They proved there was gas in the tank with the new album, followed it up three years later with Dance of Death and then A Matter of Life and Death, plus went back to business touring the globe and putting their name back into people’s mouths. The ripples into the rest of the metal scene were pretty big too, and a lot of nu metal bands failed to survive in the wake. You can argue that no BNW means no Angel of Retribution. It was the right album at the right time.

Agreed, even though I think this return to glory was not due to the sheer quality of BNW. The reunion with Bruce came at a time where old heavy Metal simply was acceptable again. Of course there is no way to prove it, but had Bruce come back 2 years earlier, it might possibly have caused lesser success.

All this is to say that while they are both comeback albums they are comebacks for very different reasons, born of different circumstances and that’s why my original comment from two years ago was just trying to say, why are you even comparing them? It’s a random comparison.

I didnt, the other user you answered to did. I fucked up the quotes. He said that BNW was 00's Painkiller of the 90s. Which I consider nonsense. I wanted to include both your posts in my quote, but only got yours bc I am too dumb to use a smartphone.

 

[Diesel 11]

Agreed, even though I think this return to glory was not due to the sheer quality of BNW. The reunion with Bruce came at a time where old heavy Metal simply was acceptable again. Of course there is no way to prove it, but had Bruce come back 2 years earlier, it might possibly have caused lesser success.

Oh sure, it was a lucky album for a lucky band, but if BNW hadn't at least been a good record then I doubt the reunion would've clicked. Of course that's subjective but it is my personal second favorite from Maiden.

I didnt, the other user you answered to did. I fucked up the quotes. He said that BNW was 00's Painkiller of the 90s. Which I consider nonsense. I wanted to include both your posts in my quote, but only got yours bc I am too dumb to use a smartphone.

Oh fair enough lol.

 

[Randalf]

Production having no meaning for the quality of songs? With all respect, this is bollocks, at least as a general opinion (in some cases it may be somewhat correct), and EVERY professional musician will tell you otherwise. Sure, the best production can not turn a bad song into a good one, but a bad production can make the best song much worse. Your point would also mean that producers are completely irrelevant.

I probably pharsed my sentence(s) very poorly, but isn't that basically what I meant by saying that the production "--underline(s) various aspects of a song, e.g punchiness of the riffs or levels, dynamics & power of the rhythmic department. That, along with Bruce's capabilities as a vocalist make the 'VXI leftovers' on BNW sound a lot more punchy [than stuff on Virtual XI written around the same time]" - hence stating that the final quality of songs is indeed very dependant on the production; the Virtual XI vs. Brave New World being a prime example on that.

I agreed with Kalata above that production values don't necessarily make the song, as a root concept, better or worse as an idea, but is essential to the final product nonetheless. For example, I think The Clansman is quite a powerful song on paper, but the initial album version is quite a turd when compared to how it truly comes alive on later live versions, presenting a totally different, more intense take on its narrative - both instrumental and lyrical. The lackluster production of Virtual XI couldn't totally hid the (debatable, of course) gems on the album, but it's the very reason why even those tracks aren't as big of a listening pleasure as some "equal" (or even "worse") songs on albums that are produced a lot better.

 

[srfc]

I strongly disagree. Nu Metal was big way into the 2000s, several years after BNW. Nu Metal had its commercial peak around that time, 2001 to 2004..That was the time when Disturbed and Slipknot emerged. It killed itself at the end of the decade, like any hyped fashion trend. BNW was Maiden's comeback but it definitely didn't kill Nu Metal (I wish it had, though).
Painkillers influence was huge on bands such as Hammerfall and Gamma Ray, who later re-established traditional Metal around the millennium. I would even speculate: Painkiller was important for the traditional Metal revival, which in turn was the basis for the success of BNW.

I think my opinion is clouded by what the UK dominated experience was. Probably there was different experience in Europe or the US. For instance, I had a mate who had that Hammerfall first album at the time, and for the most part that was an album that was not in the mainstream at all and if it had been it would have been laughed at.

You also mention in another post, "The reunion with Bruce came at a time where old heavy Metal simply was acceptable again", for me in a UK dominated perspective, BNW was the album that caused this and why I described it as being the killer of nu metal. I was at Download in 2003 when Maiden headlined, and there were the last stings of the dying wasps of nu metal on the rest of the bill.

 

[Yax]

Painkillers influence was huge on bands such as Hammerfall and Gamma Ray, who later re-established traditional Metal around the millennium. I would even speculate: Painkiller was important for the traditional Metal revival, which in turn was the basis for the success of BNW.

A little side argument here: Painkiller was very important for the early Primal Fear albums (which features... Former Gamma Ray singer and Rob Halford enthusiast Ralf Scheepers on vocals), not really Hammerfall or Gamma Ray. It actually had about zero impact on Hammerfall, who, if we're singling out their biggest influences band, were primarily influenced by Accept, Helloween and 70's and 80's Priest, rather than Painkiller Priest (Accept in particular, and they have essentially gone on record saying that).

 

[Prowler]

But no BNW songs would rank in my top 20 IM songs.

Ghost of the Navigator would rank in my top 10, I think. Out of the Silent Planet and Dream of Mirrors are up there.

Agreed, even though I think this return to glory was not due to the sheer quality of BNW. The reunion with Bruce came at a time where old heavy Metal simply was acceptable again. Of course there is no way to prove it, but had Bruce come back 2 years earlier, it might possibly have caused lesser success.

Most people would rank BNW as the best Maiden album after the first 7. It's a quality album. Of course, the return of Adrian and Bruce helped, but the songs, even if some of them were leftovers from the Blaze era, were good. Imo it's the only Maiden album after SSOASS that has 0 skip tracks (maybe AMOLAD too).

You can argue that no BNW means no Angel of Retribution. It was the right album at the right time.

All this is to say that while they are both comeback albums they are comebacks for very different reasons, born of different circumstances and that’s why my original comment from two years ago was just trying to say, why are you even comparing them? It’s a random comparison.

If anything, BNW should be compared with Angel of Retribution (Halford's return to Priest). You can't really compare Painkiller with BNW. BNW was a lot more influential than Angel. Tbh I think Priest right now release more influential albums than Angel.

You also mention in another post, "The reunion with Bruce came at a time where old heavy Metal simply was acceptable again", for me in a UK dominated perspective, BNW was the album that caused this and why I described it as being the killer of nu metal. I was at Download in 2003 when Maiden headlined, and there were the last stings of the dying wasps of nu metal on the rest of the bill.

All over Europe, BNW was the album that caused this.