I would argue that length has never equaled quality.
Are the longer Iron Maiden songs overshadowing the shorter ones?
- Thread starter Stardust
- Start date
Whooten
Ancient Mariner
Is there a correlation between the fact that Martin Birch's last album was Fear of the Dark and since then roughly 2/3rds of songs have been longer than 6 minutes?
I have long been of the mind that Maiden could use a producer to rein-in some of Mr. Harris' tendencies toward repetition.
I have long been of the mind that Maiden could use a producer to rein-in some of Mr. Harris' tendencies toward repetition.
I wouldn't be too sure. Many of the trademarks people associate with Maiden nowadays existed in the eighties already. There has always been a lot of repetition in Maiden songs, the songs weren't all that much shorter in the eighties either, And soft intros have been dominant since Somewhere in Time.
Whooten
Ancient Mariner
Perhaps the ubiquity of CDs contributed, but for most bands, Maiden included, that meant more songs. And the trend toward longer songs peaked with Powerslave/Somewhere in Time (both had 8 song and were just over 51 minutes long. Average song length was shorter on 7th Son, and only Killers has shorter average song length than No Prayer. Fear of the Dark has the fourth shortest average song length (after Killers, No Prayer, and NotB. I think that Steve viewed the longer songs on the earlier albums as better ones (Phantom, Hallowed, To Tame a Land, Powerslave, Rime, 7th Son, etc) as purposely tried to write longer songs. Especially after the "back to basics" approach on No Prayer flopped hard.
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Whooten
Ancient Mariner
Where Eagles Dare is always the best early example of repetition in the musical aspect, and the endlessly repeated song titles really took hold as you rightly point out on SIT. Maybe No Prayer and Fear of the Dark were really just anomalies and X-Factor returned to the trend begun around SIT.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
When Birch left the helm they were already an institution, a great band of great players. It's hard for any subsequent 'producer' to push his idea or arrangement. I quoted producer because they're really engineers. Harris is the producer.
Lord of Light in production
Nicko's look is priceless, I think he really loved that performance they ditched.
Lord of Light in production
Nicko's look is priceless, I think he really loved that performance they ditched.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
More focusing on number of short songs (let's say under 5 minutes) rather than on average length only:
Somewhere in Time has only one song under 5 minutes and the rest nearer to six, 7 and 8 and a half. All the other Birch albums have more short(er) songs compared to both Blaze and current line-up era albums (the post-Birch years).
Exception: Powerslave and Brave New World both have 3 songs under 5 minutes, but the latter album has two more (longer) songs. So relatively more focus on shorter songs on the Birch album.
Somewhere in Time has only one song under 5 minutes and the rest nearer to six, 7 and 8 and a half. All the other Birch albums have more short(er) songs compared to both Blaze and current line-up era albums (the post-Birch years).
Exception: Powerslave and Brave New World both have 3 songs under 5 minutes, but the latter album has two more (longer) songs. So relatively more focus on shorter songs on the Birch album.
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D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
SiT has more musical ideas than the whole recent album minus EOTC.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
It flopped because they tried to be AC/DC and there's just one AC/DC. Maiden ideas need development. The bane of No Prayer is ill development. Musical ideas were akin to last album, yet Harris tried something else and it just wasn't good enough for the bar they themselves set 2 years before.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
No Prayer was not a flop. It depends on the criteria we use. It was Maiden's last golden album in the US. According to this overview, it charted better than Brave New World, the debut album and the Blaze albums.
No Prayer For The Dying 1990 UK 2 - Oct 1990 (14 weeks), Norway 4 - Oct 1990 (4 weeks), US Gold (certified by RIAA in Nov 1990), UK Gold (certified by BPI in Oct 1990), Sweden 6 - Oct 1990 (8 weeks), Germany 7 - Oct 1990 (5 weeks), Switzerland 11 - Oct 1990 (13 weeks), Billboard 17 - Oct 1990 (18 weeks), Austria 19 - Oct 1990 (3 months), France (InfoDisc) 87 of 1990 (peak 28, 10 weeks), Italy 89 of 1990
Brave New World 2000 Sweden 1 - Jun 2000 (14 weeks), Germany 3 - Jun 2000 (4 weeks), Norway 4 - Jun 2000 (7 weeks), UK Gold (certified by BPI in Feb 2005), Canada Gold (certified by CRIA in Oct 2006), UK 7 - Jun 2000 (4 weeks), Switzerland 9 - Jun 2000 (7 weeks), Austria 15 - Jun 2000 (1 month), Billboard 39 - Jun 2000 (10 weeks), Italy 60 of 2000, RYM 63 of 2000
Iron Maiden 1980 UK Platinum (certified by BPI in Mar 1995), Canada Platinum (certified by CRIA in Oct 2006), UK 4 - Apr 1980 (17 weeks), Germany Gold (certified by BMieV in 1996), Sweden 27 - Aug 2009 (1 week), France (InfoDisc) 68 of 1980 (peak 10, 32 weeks), Acclaimed 914 (1980), RYM 29 of 1980
No Prayer For The Dying 1990 UK 2 - Oct 1990 (14 weeks), Norway 4 - Oct 1990 (4 weeks), US Gold (certified by RIAA in Nov 1990), UK Gold (certified by BPI in Oct 1990), Sweden 6 - Oct 1990 (8 weeks), Germany 7 - Oct 1990 (5 weeks), Switzerland 11 - Oct 1990 (13 weeks), Billboard 17 - Oct 1990 (18 weeks), Austria 19 - Oct 1990 (3 months), France (InfoDisc) 87 of 1990 (peak 28, 10 weeks), Italy 89 of 1990
Brave New World 2000 Sweden 1 - Jun 2000 (14 weeks), Germany 3 - Jun 2000 (4 weeks), Norway 4 - Jun 2000 (7 weeks), UK Gold (certified by BPI in Feb 2005), Canada Gold (certified by CRIA in Oct 2006), UK 7 - Jun 2000 (4 weeks), Switzerland 9 - Jun 2000 (7 weeks), Austria 15 - Jun 2000 (1 month), Billboard 39 - Jun 2000 (10 weeks), Italy 60 of 2000, RYM 63 of 2000
Iron Maiden 1980 UK Platinum (certified by BPI in Mar 1995), Canada Platinum (certified by CRIA in Oct 2006), UK 4 - Apr 1980 (17 weeks), Germany Gold (certified by BMieV in 1996), Sweden 27 - Aug 2009 (1 week), France (InfoDisc) 68 of 1980 (peak 10, 32 weeks), Acclaimed 914 (1980), RYM 29 of 1980
Whooten
Ancient Mariner
The criteria I am using is how low most people rank it and the individual songs. You sound like Rod touting those stats. Are we also to believe Bring Your Daughter is their best song because it hit #1 on the charts (while overlooking it was due to multiple versions and a Christmas Day release)?
Magnus
Pica Serdica
Only because the previous one was so good.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
And that is the problem. I don't care how big you are, at some point you need someone not in the band who is allowed to help guide the ship.
Maiden4Ever
Nomad
Would fans swap some of the 8 mins plus epics to hear more songs at live shows? And I don't mean wrathchild again lol. Also I do somethimes find the repetitive long soft intros and long endings tiresome at times. Maiden are at their best galloping along. A lot of songs on FOTD are under 5 mins and didn't that go straight to no 1 in the UK? Also one of my favourite maiden albums. A view not shared by many on here I know.
Whooten
Ancient Mariner
I would rather see an 18 song set than a 15 song set. Some of the longer songs work great in the studio, but can be draining in a live setting. Conversely, if they wanted to take a 4 minutes song like Flash of the Blade and get some crowd participation going that would be cool too. I get the point about a lot of the shorter songs not being well received, Fear of the Dark has a particular song that is quite short and hasn't been played in quite a long time (Be Quick or Be Dead). Two of Rainmaker, Futureal, Different World, Still Life, Prowler (or pick your favorites) replacing another 8 minute song would be welcomed by me.
Depends on the song, doesn't it? I mean, would you rather see Rime or would you rather see 2 Minutes + Aces High + Powerslave? That's a hard call, no matter which way you cut it.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Exactly. I'd rather see Empire of the Clouds live than Wrathchild + Iron Maiden + The Number of the Beast + Run to the Hills + The Trooper
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
A flop is a commercial failure. However people dislike the album out here, when they use wrong nomenclature (painting an exaggerated picture) I'd like to correct that. Success is hard to measure by only listening to a bunch of opinions. Commercial success is impossible to measure like this.
Besides that I thought it was good to share its chart successes.
It's a fine song, that's what I believe.
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Whooten
Ancient Mariner
Point taken on my nomenclature regarding 'flopped.' I was thinking of it more in the idea that Maiden were trying to go for something specific (more stripped down, back to basics) but they seem to have failed in that regard as the album is consistently ranked among their worst by multiple sources, the songs are generally eschewed in setlists, and not ranked very highly by most fans and observers. Of course having been active on this site for over 7 years, I know you (and some others) have a subjective appreciation for No Prayer and your use of objective quantifiable sales metrics seemingly backs-up your case. I guess it just bugs me when someone says something is better because it sells more.