Anti-Bush Bullshit

I agree with most of Owly's post, although I'm basically pro-life. I can only add a personal detail, in connection to this:
[!--QuoteBegin-Le Hibou - The Owl+Sep 24 2005, 01:03 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Le Hibou - The Owl @ Sep 24 2005, 01:03 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't think neither an embryo nor a foetus are human beings. To me, a human being comes into existence on the birth day.
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When I was pregnant, I perceived the fetus/foetus as my son. He indeed showed his cocky little personality, like when he kept kicking off the monitoring belt at the hospital. He can't stand being bothered - having his nails cut, for example, to this day.

Of course, this is no argument, just a memory I have [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Sep 24 2005, 09:02 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Sep 24 2005, 09:02 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Of course, this is no argument, just a memory I have [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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And it's entirely subjective.
 
As memories tend to be [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Subjectivity is not a bad thing, Mav.
How can we make a determination on what constitutes "life" without being subjective? Our subjectivity allows us to make moral judgements, and is therefore indispensible in all things we do - even microbiology [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Life is anything able to replicate in an active manner. If you value life so much, don't take any antibiotics when you have a cold. You'd be perpetrating a genocide, on the pathogens as well as your intestinal flora...
 
That's a subjective definition based on your beliefs and values [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

And I think we can all agree there's a difference between a culture of bacteria in a petrie dish and human beings
 
I have no beliefs or values than those stemming from experience. A bacterial culture is no different from a human community. There are actually more useful bacteria than human beings... Sad statement, I know.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Sep 24 2005, 04:16 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Sep 24 2005, 04:16 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have no beliefs or values than those stemming from experience. A bacterial culture is no different from a human community. There are actually more useful bacteria than human beings... Sad statement, I know.
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All hail zymogenic bacteria!
[!--emo&:nana:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lambada.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lambada.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:nana:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/lambada.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'lambada.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Le Hibou - The Owl+Sep 23 2005, 02:03 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Le Hibou - The Owl @ Sep 23 2005, 02:03 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I don't think neither an embryo nor a foetus are human beings. To me, a human being comes into existence on the birth day. [/quote]
Then why do the babies kick inside of the mother and react as a human being would?

Also, who are we to say when one of us should be taken out of this world? Are we really the ones who have the right to choose?

Im just asking questions, trying to back my point up, which is need for me not to look like a complete idiot, so no hard feelings, not flamin anybody here, I just want your opinions on what I have to say [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] Maiden for life!
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Then why do the babies kick inside of the mother and react as a human being would?[/quote]
What's inside woman's womb is not a baby but a foetus. It sometimes kicks indeed. I quite don't see the link between that fact and the fact you seem to think it gives the foetus humanity. It may be the case for you, it doesn't to me.


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Also, who are we to say when one of us should be taken out of this world? Are we really the ones who have the right to choose?[/quote]
That's why the subject is so sensitive. Because a foetus is close to a baby and all the feelings associated with a baby, abortion, when it comes to foetus, is a difficult matter.

My point was to explain why I was pro-choice.
I'd rather have abortion legal and done in a medical place where it's safe than illegal and having one woman dying a day.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Sep 24 2005, 10:16 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Sep 24 2005, 10:16 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have no beliefs or values than those stemming from experience. A bacterial culture is no different from a human community. There are actually more useful bacteria than human beings... Sad statement, I know.
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I have to side with Mav there... life is life, no matter whether you call it human being, sequoia tree, rhinoceros or salmonella choleraesuis.
The human being is supposed to be the most evolved form of life on this planet. This gives him the possibility to judge when killing (i.e. the destruction of life) is justifiable. However, I have come to the conclusion that the human being is actually the only form of life who lacks this ability to judge. An animal will never kill needlessly. An animal will kill specimens of the same species, but there is always a reason to it.
Well, we know the thing with humanity...
What I'm meaning to say is, killing is not wrong per se. We kill every day. We kill trees, we kill animals, and, face it, the reason why we (or most of us) are here is because at some point humans killed humans.
What is wrong, however, is killing needlessly. There is no need to exterminate complete species of animals, there is no need for humans endlessly killing humans and so forth. If killing a fellow human being is the only way you can survive, then that can hardly be condemned. If we kill people or animals "for the fun of it" or with the aim to gain wealth (although we are perfectly able to survive this way already), that is wrong. If we kill for irrational reasons like hurt feelings or a flag, that is wrong. If we kill somebody because he is pointing a gun at our face and will pull the trigger at any given time, well, sorry, but that is not wrong.
Likewise, I tend to think that chopping down a tree "because we don't like the way it looks" or it is "bothering" us in any other way, is wrong. Most likely, the tree has been around in this place for much longer than we have and has more right to be there than we do. However, I suppose if we are in need of a shelter, and only the wood from this tree can provide it, chopping it down is right. However, I am in favour of the idea of planting a new tree for each one we chopped down.

Well, whatever. I still love you lots [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Just a few thoughts on Perun's rant.

While it may be true that an animal will only kill for the sake of its own survival, I still think it is precisely that instinct, rooted deep inside the man, that makes him kill. The desire to overcome the enemy, to restore order and to prevail are, after all, remnants of the animalistic hierarchy of a herd. (This makes me think of a poem I posted some time ago in "Now Reading", about wolves and lambs, which basically depicts dominant wolves as more valuable to society)

But then it is man's awareness of the law, morals and things like that, that prevents him from killing when he feels the urge. Unless his psyche is so damaged or he is mentally so ill that he cannot assess his own actions. Or unless the situation escalates in such way that violence is inevitable. This can theoretically be any situation.

So the question for me remains, when is it right and when wrong to use utter measures. Is murder wrong because it's calculated, for whatever reasons? Is there any reason, with the exception of self-defense, acceptable for killing?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Oct 10 2005, 11:51 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Oct 10 2005, 11:51 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Is there any reason, with the exception of self-defense, acceptable for killing?
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Naturally, that depends on how you define self-defence. Does tyrant murder count as self-defence? What about preemtive actions?

One interesting question is, where does the human being stand compared to the animal world? Can he be defined as a predator? Is he a herd animal?
 
(Sorry for all the facts, I found it kind of interesting [!--emo&:blush:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blush.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blush.gif\' /][!--endemo--] )
I have looked into a few books and online resources. I won't say anything new here: most dictionaries and encyclopedias define murder as the crime of unlawfully killing a person, intentionally, that is with so called malice aforethought. Some countries descern murder, manslaughter (also known as homicide) and infanticide (killing of a baby by the mother due to post-natal depression), or murders in more degrees - premeditated, crimes of passion (upon being provoked) and unintentional killings.

The interesting bit are legal killings. In most countries they are - in legal execution, self-defense and in combat (killing the enemy that has not surrendered). Same goes for pre-emptive attacks at war (national self-defense), I think.

In most countries of the Western world murdering your tyrant does count as murder, or killing - it depends on the circumstances. It may, however, be considered a mitigating circumstance, allowing lesser or no punishment. Other such circumstances may be insanity, post-traumatic stress disorder, in some countries even post-natal depression.

As for self-defense, or even defense of others, the degree of violence used should be about the same as the threat. Also, you have to first try to run away. This is called duty to retreat. But this is not the case in some US states, and generally, if you are in your own house. Individual pre-emptive assault is not considered self-defense either.

Having said that, the moral sense of the words killing and murder is not always the same as the legal. For example, morals dictate us that tyrant murder can't be compared to, say, brutal rape and slaughter. But what about an extremely brutal tyrant murder compared to a panic shooting by a young robber at the liquour shop?

As for herds, a sociologist would say that man is indeed a herd animal. I've heard one such scientist talk about an experiment done on a group of people. He divided the people into two teams based on sex and other criteria. Then he gave the two teams the same task, so that they compete. In the course of the experiment the members used all sorts of methods including nasty cheating to win for their team. In the evening they discussed the day together, and they came to the conclusion that they would normally never cheat the way they did. But the next day, with a new task, they did the same. The conclusion of the sociologist was: the herd animal is in all of us.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Oct 10 2005, 08:15 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Oct 10 2005, 08:15 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]As for herds, a sociologist would say that man is indeed a herd animal. I've heard one such scientist talk about an experiment done on a group of people. He divided the people into two teams based on sex and other criteria. Then he gave the two teams the same task, so that they compete. In the course of the experiment the members used all sorts of methods including nasty cheating to win for their team. In the evening they discussed the day together, and they came to the conclusion that they would normally never cheat the way they did. But the next day, with a new task, they did the same. The conclusion of the sociologist was: the herd animal is in all of us.
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That is indeed overwhelming evidence, but what would this fellow say to that?

[img src=\'http://www.celticdesires.com/tarot-hermit.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]

(That is more or less a joke)
 
Face to face with the evidence, he'd have to join [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] :
[img src=\'http://www.vermontsheep.org/images/herd.jpg\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]
 
Well, Guess that if someone totally stranger to the metal sphere landed here by mistake, he'd probably be surprised to see the stratospheric level of reflexion that takes place in this forum. Should Turkey belong to the E.U? Is the foetus already a person and Do you sleep better with the beard under the sheets (or the contrary?)
All those so-called moronic metalheads able to discuss major issues developping their pros & cons for (p)ages and nevertheless always keeping the discussions on a polite form.
That's not what I was expecting [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] from a Maiden site to start with, but I guess I'm more than happy it works this way. With music & Maiden as an appetizer, a kind of "get to know you better" ingredient. Before you wonder just how far you can open your mind and feelings to the person opposite you. The way you would do with a new acquaintance, not yet a friend, but already a good mate.
I can tell you Maiden fans is one of the only fans site with so much mind over muscle.
And just to tackle back on this abortion issue, I definitely think it's up to he woman to do her own choice in private, not being influenced by people pressuring her "for her own good". The moment you take such a decision and have to carry it to an end (sometimes bitter) is tough enough not to need being judged on top of that. And true as the Owl says, it's better to have women undergoing abortion and sure to walk out the clinic alive, than being butchered on a greasy table, suffering internal bleedings or even the risk not to be able to give birth anymore! Not to mention the fact she might not leave the room alive, with sometimes already a few children ending up as orphans.
What's the better choice?
And who are to judge?
Hope vanity will not kill us all in the end [!--emo&:duckie:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/duckie.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'duckie.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-wasted in paris+Oct 11 2005, 12:18 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(wasted in paris @ Oct 11 2005, 12:18 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Do you sleep better with the beard under the sheets (or the contrary?)
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[/quote]And I thought this was THE THREAD [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I actually sleep with my beard under the sheets. True story. [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-wasted in paris+Oct 10 2005, 11:18 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(wasted in paris @ Oct 10 2005, 11:18 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, Guess that if someone totally stranger to the metal sphere landed here by mistake, he'd probably be surprised to see the stratospheric level of reflexion that takes place in this forum. Should Turkey belong to the E.U? Is the foetus already a person and Do you sleep better with the beard under the sheets (or the contrary?)
All those so-called moronic metalheads able to discuss major issues developping their pros & cons for (p)ages and nevertheless always keeping the discussions on a polite form.
That's not what I was expecting  [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] from a Maiden site to start with, but I guess I'm more than happy it works this way. With music & Maiden as an appetizer, a kind of "get to know you better" ingredient. Before you wonder just how far you can open your mind and feelings to the person opposite you. The way you would do with a new acquaintance, not yet a friend, but already a good mate.
I can tell you Maiden fans is one of the only fans site with so much mind over muscle.
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C'mon, everybody knows we're just hopelessly drunk and posting random bullshit [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
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