Anti-Bush Bullshit

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
Ok, I'm posting this because I was walking through my college campus and saw something that was screaming "post me! post me!" so I am.
First I'd like to thank everybodoy for the kind words you posted as goodbyes. I've talked to a few people on instant messengers and I have said I might post agains, so here it is. Also, before I start I'd like to do another round of shameless self promotion and announce that my radio show is now thursday nights 9-10 pm Arizona time hehe.

Now, as I was saying I was walking through the University campus and noticed an "anti-bush regime" poster on a table, then I noticed the chairs and microphone in front of that table which let me know it was a big deal. On that table there were pro-abortion pins that read the following: "Keep Abortion Legal", "Fetuses are not children, abortion is not murder", Parental Consent Laws limit the rights of young women!" and many more.

I've made my thoughts on abortion clear on other threads but just to recap: Abortion should be legal because we have separation of church and state and it is a state issue. It is the State's responsibility to protect and serve its people and abortion falls under both, it's a service and a health concern in some cases.

So obviously I agree with the first slogan, it should be kept legal, however the rest go down hill from there. To say that fetuses are not children to justify abortion is moronic. In other words If I were to grab a fertilized Condor, Chicken or Turtle egg and drop it from a three story building it's fine because "it's just an egg"? a quick dictionary search will reveal the following definition for "murder": The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murderThe unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
So they are right, it isn't murder since abortion is legal however are you still "killing"? again a quick search brought up: To put to death.
To deprive of life: The Black Death was a disease that killed millions.
To put an end to; extinguish: The rain killed our plans for a picnic.
To destroy a vitally essential quality in: Too much garlic killed the taste of the meat.
To cause to cease operating; turn off: killed the motor


Abortion is depriving life, putting an end to, destroying the vital essence and ceasing the operation of a growing fetus. And they are still proud to wave that flag.... God their stupidity amazes me. This is driven home but another of their buttons that read "Abortions on demand, no apologies" This gives the misconception that women are getting aboritons for the hell of it, not keeping in mind the side effects of one (Even two abortions can cause a woman never to get pregnant again, it is a brutal procedure.

And finally, the one about depriving rights to young women.... As far as I know minors are... for lack of a better word, property. They are their parents property, if they don't take care of them, run away etc, they are the state's property (Minor's who ditch school are picked up by the police and put back in). In othe words they have no "rights" or "freedoms" in the way adults have them. Parental Concent laws are for minors who want to get an abortion. Disguising them as "young women" is bullshit. if you are younger than 18 years of age you have little to no say in many things, you can't drink, vote, drive (15 and under in the U.S and Mexico anyway) and of course major surguries. So if "young women" want to get abortions without parental consent why not let minors smoke and drink too? Again, stupidity at it's finest.

In closing, I'm all in favor of keeping abortion legal because I'd rather have a certified, trained physician operate the procedure than an illegal butcher in some back alley "clinic". The health of the woman is the concern, it is a health issue, hence a state issue.
But when they come out with crap like that talked about above it only pisses off conservatives (as you can tell hehe), makes them look stupid, and keeps this non-issue a "big" issue in the minds of the public. And now I retire to do my readings. Thanks for listening. Now I can focus.
 
Just some precisions.

A fetus is not legally a human being in many countries.

So yes, one of their slogan is right, fetus are not children. But the contradiction relies on the word "murder". If a fetus is not a human being in legal terms, therefore, there is no "murder" in abortion. This word is highly improper for this subject, but often used because the anti-abortion camp is using it to describe the medical operation.

And, I do agree, the right to abort for women must stay legal.
 
Well, the big problem is the definition of life. Even though it might be stated in laws, not al people can agree with it. But as you said Onhell, the health of a women doing the abortion is the main concern.

BTW did you read about those abortion ships from Spain, if my mind don't trick me. Girls who wanted to do abortion buyed a place at the boat and they sailed to sea to legaly be able to do the abortion ( correct me if i'm wrong, this was some time ago).

Personally I'm possitive of abortions, for the sake of both the woman and the children. If the woman feels that she won't be able to rais the child to a worthy life, I think it's her right to take the choice of abortion.
 
Until we know for sure whether an unborn child is 'alive' (as we know it) or not, shouldn't we give it the benefit of the doubt?
 
I think abortion should be legal under some circumstances like raping to the mother or certanity of a bad, not curable disease in the fetus.....

as to what this have to do with bush.. I dont know...
 
[!--QuoteBegin-MaidenColombia+Sep 15 2005, 02:14 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MaidenColombia @ Sep 15 2005, 02:14 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]as to what this have to do with bush.. I dont know...
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Bush opposes abortion for religious reasons.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-MaidenColombia+Sep 15 2005, 03:14 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(MaidenColombia @ Sep 15 2005, 03:14 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]as to what this have to do with bush.. I dont know...
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[/quote] I think those people tried to campaign against Bush by opposing one of his favourite issues.

Abortion. Rape, terminal illness, bad damage of the fetus? Possibly.
I wouldn't mix religion or emotions in this. For me, it's a question of simple reasoning. When something is alive and we stop, abort that life, it's killing. Legally, the difference between killing and murder is that the latter is premeditated. Is abortion premeditated? Of course, we can legally define fetuses as no children. That way, however, we have a bit of a conceptual problem, don't we?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Sep 15 2005, 09:21 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Sep 15 2005, 09:21 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think those people tried to campaign against Bush by opposing one of his favourite issues.

Abortion. Rape, terminal illness, bad damage of the fetus? Possibly.
I wouldn't mix religion or emotions in this. For me, it's a question of simple reasoning. When something is alive and we stop, abort that life, it's killing. Legally, the difference between killing and murder is that the latter is premeditated. Is abortion premeditated? Of course, we can legally define fetuses as no children. That way, however, we have a bit of a conceptual problem, don't we?
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The German government is seeking compromise by defining foetuses as living human beings from a certain stage on (I believe it is three months). Before that, abortion is legal, afterwards, it is illegal.

As for my personal beliefs, I have to say: I don't know. I have no idea if a human is a human before it crawls out of its mothers belly.
What I do believe, however, is that the one who should bear the decision about abortion or not is the mother. The mother is the only person to bear ties with her child when it still is in her belly, and I am sure that the mother knows if it is a living human being or not. Nobody else should be given that decision.
 
it's a dillema, and sometimes a pseudo at that. Why is the same woman who goes through an abortion scared throughlife from the experience and not when she takes a day-after pill? Day-after pills can prevent the implantation of the fertilised "egg" in the uterus, thus killing a human being in the same sence that abortions do according tosome.
 
Hrm. One of the few issues where the Duke and I disagree. I think that abortion needs to be more carefully monitored, and that in order to get abortions performed, a woman should need the approval of 2 MDs, or psychiatrists. Realistically, something that wouldn't be so hard to do, as many of the women who are getting abortions today are too young or simply not yet mentally fit to carry a child. Having said that, I think our education system should be revamped to accept the possibility of pregnancy, and to push adoption over abortion.

But under no circumstances should we take away the right of a woman to abort. It's already emotional enough when the circumstances call for it. Why add in the possibility of a crime...and indeed death due to "back alley abortion" practises?
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What I do believe, however, is that the one who should bear the decision about abortion or not is the mother. The mother is the only person to bear ties with her child when it still is in her belly, and I am sure that the mother knows if it is a living human being or not. Nobody else should be given that decision.[/quote]

Does that mean that the father has no rights, then? Both the mother and father are legally required to provide care for the child after he/she is born, so why shouldn't the father have input over a decision like this too?
Yes, women have the right to decide the fate of their own bodies, but the father's reproductive rights must not be invalidated by that.

In this day and age, [in the West] it is impossible not to know the consequences (pregnancy) of your actions (unprotected sex). Why should a human life be snuffed out in its earliest stages because someone was too stupid to think their actions through? It's hardly fair.
Until we've better described what constitutes a human life, I maintain that abortion should only be legal a. when the mother's life is at risk if she carries the child to term and b. when it is the by-product of rape/sexual assault

If the parents are unable to care for the child after birth, there are hundreds of thousands of infertile couples who are looking to adopt, so there's always a loving home for the baby.
 
Meh, Ill drop in my two cents here. First off, as you will tell by my post, I am proud to be Pro-Life, and Catholic as well.

My view is that the baby is a live, human being, from the instant it becomes a fetus. It has always been common knowledge to me and I thought that it should be common knowledge for everyone as well. When the egg and sperm unite, it forms life, simple science, simple logic.

The fact on abortion, is it is 'aborting' that live fetus, simple enough. But if that is a living human being, then why is killing that person right, let alone legal? To me, its the same as murder, just murdering a younger human being. One does not even have to bring religion into this to prove the point that one is killing a human being. Flame away.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-ShaftedTwice+Sep 22 2005, 03:58 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(ShaftedTwice @ Sep 22 2005, 03:58 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]...One does not even have to bring religion into this to prove the point that one is killing a human being. Flame away.
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We don't flame people here [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] We respect one another's opinion, even if we disagree with it. (I actually happen to agree with you here...)

Your post reminds me of the final scene in the movie "Boondock Saints." The guy says "Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace..."
 
Unfortunately morals don't always equal the law. And there are times, unfortunately again, when even the highest principles are at question.
 
A foetus is a potential human being in the same way that a knife is a potential murder weapon. It's only later that the true nature of such a thing is decided, not during its elaboration.

A vast majority humans never actually make it to the stage of Homo sapiens (i.e., "thinking man") throughout their lives, as long as these may be. They are only called that for the sake of taxonomy, nothing else.





I wish I belonged to another species... [!--emo&:(--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sad.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Sep 22 2005, 03:51 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Sep 22 2005, 03:51 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]We don't flame people here [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] We respect one another's opinion, even if we disagree with it. (I actually happen to agree with you here...)

Your post reminds me of the final scene in the movie "Boondock Saints." The guy says "Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace..."
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Good to hear it [!--emo&:)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'smile.gif\' /][!--endemo--] Good movie, great phrase there.
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]A foetus is a potential human being in the same way that a knife is a potential murder weapon.[/quote]
I've gotta say that I disagree with you here. A fetus is a human being. Period.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Maverick+Sep 22 2005, 11:05 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Maverick @ Sep 22 2005, 11:05 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]A foetus is a potential human being in the same way that a knife is a potential murder weapon.
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[!--QuoteBegin-ShaftedTwice+Sep 22 2005, 09:06 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(ShaftedTwice @ Sep 22 2005, 09:06 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I've gotta say that I disagree with you here. A fetus is a human being. Period.
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All right then - you've both stated your opinions. Let's acknowledge the difference of opinion and leave it at that. This is the kind of subject that's ripe for turning into a flame war, which no one wants to see.
 
Well, many had their say, I’m going to tell mine.

In many countries, abortion is legal for embryos (cells developing). Afterwards, it is called a foetus and looks more and more alike to a human being. It begins to move. At this point, abortion is limited to medical cases:
-if the woman's life is in danger
-if the foetus shows some deep physical and/or mental trouble.

The subject is a very sensitive one, because it deals with a human being to be and the representation we have of him/her as well as the sentiments it involves. A baby is tiny, fragile, cute, "innocent" and so on. Also, he/she is the object of love, tenderness... We project on him/her dreams and wills, a life to make it short. And life is priceless as every human being is unique.

I am definitively not Pro-Life. I don't think neither an embryo nor a foetus are human beings. To me, a human being comes into existence on the birth day.
I am not either Pro-Abortion. I think it's sad that some people (and I don't use the word "women", because men are also involve in this) use it as a contraception method.

Basically, I am Pro-Choice. And I will fight, if needed, to let abortion stay legal.
I've got many reasons, from common sense to ethical ones for this. But the main one is this: in France, before abortion was made legal, every day, one woman was dying on a kitchen table because of a bad abortion technique, haemorrhage, unsanitary conditions...
One woman a day!

There always have been abortions and there always will be. At least, let make them in good conditions in a medical environment.
 
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