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RTC said:
I think you're severely overestimating the effect of a bassist.
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Tell that to Black Sabbath ;)

As much as I like Neil Murray as a bass player, the Sabbath albums without Geezer Butler seem to have something 'missing'. It's not that there is not a great bass player on them..... Geezer (and his partnership with Iommi) just puts something in Sabbath that no one else can reproduce.

The same would be true for Maiden and Steve.
 
Welsh Phantom said:
Tell that to Black Sabbath ;)

As much as I like Neil Murray as a bass player, the Sabbath albums without Geezer Butler seem to have something 'missing'. It's not that there is not a great bass player on them..... Geezer (and his partnership with Iommi) just puts something in Sabbath that no one else can reproduce.

The same would be true for Maiden and Steve.
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True. I have a really hard time listening to the albums without Geezer. You could say Tony's the one whom Sabbath revolve around, but unless there are these two, there's something missing.
 
I disagree immensely when looking at Sabbath. In my case: Headless Cross and Tyr are wonderful albums. The former is held very high in regard among metal circles (artists included). And The Eternal Idol is strong as well. Perhaps there's indeed less emphasize on bass, but I look at these albums as "individual" records, judged by their own strengths. The songwriting (1), melodies (2), solos (3), atmosphere (4) and vocals (5) are very strong. Drumwise HC and Tyr also are very powerful. These strengths make up for it, big time. Very enjoyable. I do not miss Geezer here.
 
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Forostar said:
I disagree immensely when looking at Sabbath. In my case: Headless Cross and Tyr are wonderful albums. The former is held very high in regard among metal circles (artists included). And The Eternal Idol is strong as well. Perhaps there's indeed less emphasize on bass, but I look at these albums as "individual" records, judged by their own strengths. The songwriting (1), melodies (2), solos (3), atmosphere (4) and vocals (5) are very strong. They make up for it, big time. Very enjoyable. I do not miss Geezer here.
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Oh yes, I agree. I LOVE these albums and think the Tony Martin era(s) is totally underrated. I own and play all these albums regularly.

Then I put on Cross Purposes and think "Wow!", even before any singing starts......THAT'S Sabbath. And I think the reason was Geezer came back.

The non Geezer albums are excellent bodies of work and they deserve respect....but I can really notice the effect of a different bass player, which was my original point of a bass player CAN have a dramatic effect on a bands sound (if they are good and original bass players, as in non generic, I should add!) :)
 
Good to see more acknowledgement for the Tony Martin era @Welsh Phantom! But do you find Cross Purposes also a better album than Headless Cross and Tyr? You miss Geezer on these records, but does this make these albums less good? That would be a shame to be honest. I mean, do you really find all these five strengths I mentioned less important than a bass player of your liking? Especially songwriting is important isn't it?

What does it matter if these albums sound less typical Sabbath? The Tony Martin-era is different, and it changed a lot of things. It got some real gems, but in a different light than the other gems from other eras. This is the opposite side of the Black Sabbath coin and I think it is as good as anything else they've done.

I really love Cross Purposes as well by the way. Forbidden too, although it has a couple of less strong songs.
 
Forostar said:
Good to see more acknowledgement for the Tony Martin era @Welsh Phantom! But do you find Cross Purposes also a better album than Headless Cross and Tyr? You miss Geezer on these records, but does this make these albums less good? That would be a shame to be honest. I mean, do you really find all these five strengths I mentioned less important than a bass player of your liking? Especially songwriting is important isn't it?

What does it matter if these albums sound less typical Sabbath? The Tony Martin-era is different, and it changed a lot of things. It got some real gems, but in a different light than the other gems from other eras. This is the opposite side of the Black Sabbath coin and I think it is as good as anything else they've done.

I really love Cross Purposes as well by the way. Forbidden too, although it has a couple of less strong songs.
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No, Cross Purposes is not as good as either Headless Cross or Tyr (Tyr being better than HC imo). But they sound less "Sabbath" than Cross Purposes to me, which is down to the bass I think.

My point (@RTC) is not to underestimate the lack of a once present bass player (if they are a cut above most other bass players) on a bands sound. So if Steve left and was replaced by a great bass player, they likely would not sound like "Maiden". Even with all of Maiden's various musical directions over the years, they have always sounded like Maiden and I think that that is mainly down to the presence of Steve Harris at all times.
 
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Great stuff boys on the Tony Martin sabbath stuff. I think I'm in a small minority who loves all eras of black sabbath but would put the classic ozzy era st the bottom. Don't get me wrong I love 70's sabbath and I love ozzys voice and solo work but to me the ultimate sabbath era is with Dio, the mans voice was just the stuff of legends and he made sabbath a better band as they could really stretch themselves musically as Dio had the voice to sing anything.

A very close second would be the tony Martin albums. All of them including forbidden are excellent. I love the 80's Rock/metal sound these albums have and Tony Martin, well what can I say. A simply amazing singer. I always wondered why he never got a bigger gig over the years when sabbath screwed him for the last time to cash in on an ozzy reunion. As much as I love blaze I always hoped he'd get the iron maiden job when Bruce left.

What makes the Martin albums sound great is the combination of the great vocals and the riff master general on good form. Cozy Powell was essential on the headless cross and tyr and I wish he'd been around longer. Never missed geezer but cross purposes definitely has his mark stamped all over it.
 
I don't want to be too harsh, I think I more or less like pretty much every Sabbath album apart from Seventh Star (I'm even very particular about Born Again, which often gets a lot of flak)...

...it's just that Geezer is such a wizard on the base! I love his lines, his creativity and - as far as my personal enjoyment is concerned - he might be actually the most essential Sabbath member (that is, the one who separates them from the rest). I'm almost always in the mood to listen to an album with Geezer, but I cannot say the same about the rest. That said, pretty much any Martin album is better than Never Say Die, so there...

Since we've already digressed pretty far, let me just say that (since the name of the thread and all) in Sabbath a change of a singer has changed the band itself in a pretty extreme way, so I actually know people who say Sabbath with Dio aren't Sabbath (including Iommi :p).
 
Cried, you have ignored this post. Read again. It was a a quarter dozen posts ago.
Welsh Phantom said:
No, Cross Purposes is not as good as either Headless Cross or Tyr (Tyr being better than HC imo). But they sound less "Sabbath" than Cross Purposes to me, which is down to the bass I think.

My point (@RTC) is not to underestimate the lack of a once present bass player (if they are a cut above most other bass players) on a bands sound. So if Steve left and was replaced by a great bass player, they likely would not sound like "Maiden". Even with all of Maiden's various musical directions over the years, they have always sounded like Maiden and I think that that is mainly down to the presence of Steve Harris at all times.
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jazz from hell said:
It's not just about the sound and playing-style of the bass-player. Harris is just more important to Maiden than Geezer to Sabbath.
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Absolutely. (I find Iommi's role in Sabbath more valuable than Geezer's, while Harris is the number one in Maiden)
 
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Forostar said:
Absolutely. (I find Iommi's role in Sabbath more valuable than Geezer's, while Harris is the number one in Maiden)
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Yeah, Iommi is to Sabbath as Steve is to Maiden. No doubt.

But that just emphasises my point of the role of a good bass player in a band. Without Geezer (even as not the main player in the band), even still with Iommi, the sound (for me ) changed a lot.
 
Sabbath is not a good comparison to Maiden. They've had so many different iterations through the years and at least one album wasn't even supposed to be a Black Sabbath album. Iron Maiden has had a pretty stable core lineup (Steve/Dave/mostly Nicko) and even beyond that hasn't changed too much. In particular, the rhythm section of Sabbath has changed a ton. Sometimes Geezer's there, sometimes he isn't, and they've had a ton of drummers. They've hardly ever established an identifiable rhythm section the way Maiden has. Not to mention all the stylistic changes they took. It's just not the same as Maiden, not even close.
 
Mosh said:
Sabbath is not a good comparison to Maiden. They've had so many different iterations through the years and at least one album wasn't even supposed to be a Black Sabbath album. Iron Maiden has had a pretty stable core lineup (Steve/Dave/mostly Nicko) and even beyond that hasn't changed too much. In particular, the rhythm section of Sabbath has changed a ton. Sometimes Geezer's there, sometimes he isn't, and they've had a ton of drummers. They've hardly ever established an identifiable rhythm section the way Maiden has. Not to mention all the stylistic changes they took. It's just not the same as Maiden, not even close.
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Agreed. I'd say that Dream Theater might be a good comparison. I firmly believe that Dream Theater could go on forever as long as John Petrucci was in the band. He is the Steve Harris of Dream Theater. I originally would have thought this true of both Portnoy and Myung, but they've proven it wrong with Portnoy and the more research I do has lead me to discover that Myung has been a mostly inactive member since the mid-to-late 90's.
 
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