USA Politics

Lost in a lost world said:
What do people really believe? That is the fundamental question, I think.

Here’s an example of a group of professed anti-racists shooting two Black teenagers, killing one of them, in the incident that ended the CHOP occupation in Seattle’s Capitol Hill district in 2020.


While the act itself was tragic and could be considered an accident, these anti-racist “street fighters” not only never owned up to their culpability but actively tried to obfuscate it.


But wait, here’s a group of “patriots,” many wearing or flying flags with “Blue Lives Matter” on them beating the shit out of the police in DC in 2021.


Hypocrisy? Did they never actually believe in the things they say they believe in and just want to be seen as people with strong convictions? Are their beliefs simply discardable when convenient to them?

I just file it all under “people are dumb.” To me, civil rights and civil liberties for all, an effective economic safety net, and environmental stewardship are important.

But people using their beliefs to justify their bad behavior are jackasses.

I think, too often these days, debates are polarized to the point where each side sees the other as these bad extremes. While these bad extremes exist, most people don’t fall under those categories. They’re somewhere less extreme on the political spectrum.
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You raise some good and interesting points. I can mostly agree with the "people are dumb" sentiment.

What I disagree with is the indirect (and maybe not intended?) notion that both extremes are comparable or similar.

For the sake of transparency: I'm obviously very biased on this matter. I'm not American; I'm Greek, but grew up and am living in Germany. I am invested in US politics due to their effect on global politics. Whether we like it or not, what happens in the US ends up directly influencing what happens in my home countries.
I am part of one of those "extremes". I'm a leftist and a socialist. I dislike the effects of late stage capitalism, both on humans (wealth disparity, exploitation of the lower class and the global south) as well as on the planet itself (anthropogenic climate change). These things could probably happen under a different economic system as well, but it's difficult seeing how hyper capitalist endeavors are directly causing destruction all around us, while pretty much all "worst case scenario" predictions by scientists are coming true, much faster than even their most alarming warnings.

I wanted to talk about how, according to the Department of Homeland Security, the largest source of domestic terrorism in the US is by the far right. I used to link to their findings quite often, but I can't find the link at the moment. Haven't looked for it since Trump became president again, but it wouldn't be the first time that useful information was withheld. I guess you'll have to take my word for the following, but you are free to look it up: Left wing extremism in the US is negligible; far right extremism abundant and responsible for most violent incidents in the last decades.

To put it in other terms: The right is championing a man and an administration that is constantly violating the Constitution. ICE got such enormous funding that overshadows most militaries of other countries. Unmarked militias are going through streets kidnapping legal US citizens to get them deported, violating their rights, because they "look foreign". Fascism is on the rise; globally and domestically. And despite all the "we need the 2nd amendment to overthrow a tyrannical government" type arguments that many who are pro-gun brought forth over the years, there's now a large chunk of Americans who are openly cheering for a dictatorship, as long as it's their side doing it.

On the other hand, what exactly are the extreme positions of the left? I won't deny that there have been instances of anti-semitism on the left as well, but support for Palestine doesn't equal support for Hamas. Criticizing the government of Israel for enacting a genocide in broad daylight (as recognized by multiple human rights groups, including Israeli ones) does not equal championing the eradication of Israel or Jewish people.
Then there's obviously all the "culture war" issues. The left wants the LGBTQ community to have the same rights as everyone else, while anti-LGBTQ hate crimes are rising year over year. They want the trans community to have access to live-saving healthcare, as supported by the medical consensus worldwide. Biased source? Maybe, but a good list of statements by a variety of medical organizations on the matter. They want people of colour to be able to live their lives without fear of being harassed or even attacked or murdered. We're living in a time where even the existence of characters who aren't straight, white men in movies, tv shows and video games is decried as "woke", "pushing agendas" or "shoving them down our throats", while Trump and his goons are deporting US citizens and building concentration camps.

The most frustrating thing is that none of what is happening is in any way surprising. The left has been screaming and warning about all this for years. We had someone in this thread painting himself as an apolitical, regular guy with normal, regular problems. He was informed multiple times, in good faith, that the specific policy issues he raised were addressed much better by Harris's campaign than Trump's. He still ended up voting for Trump. He also went mask-off and shared straight up neo nazi rhetoric. It's this disingenuousness that gets me. On one hand playing the "I'm just a normal dude, I want to grill and drink beer", on the other hand revealing deeply political and far right talking points, probably from 4chan or another similar board that radicalizes people. In other words, there was no interest in discussing or learning. There was no interest in debating policies and positions. The lines were drawn, the colours chosen and there was no interest in actually talking about any of this.

This all might seem very one-sided and convenient to you. And honestly? It probably is. But I genuinely can't see how someone could think that what is happening on the far left is in any way comparable to what is happening on the far right, at the moment. Not saying that you are saying that by the way, I just took your comment as an excuse to put my thoughts in order and context.
 
Yeah, I can agree with that. It's why I like to differentiate between leftism and liberalism. In my experience leftists tend to criticize things like rainbow capitalism (corporate brands pandering to LGBTQ folks because, as it turns out, "the gays" also have money to burn!) while many liberals praise these companies and pretend that them using a rainbow coloured logo during Pride Month is worthwhile activism.

Having said that, given the current political climate and how Trump chooses to outright punish corporations that are "pro-DEI", "diverse", "woke" or whatever, I have to put my cynicism aside for a minute and applaud those, who still choose to support the LGBTQ crowd. Even if it's just performative, when these actions can result in monetary harm to a brand (which is what they care about the most, obviously), it is commendable that they are still going for diversity and representation. Credit where credit's due and all that. On the flip side there are brands like Disney, who somehow has this public image of being diverse and "woke", while actively cutting out LGBTQ themes out of recent productions. Elio was supposed to heavily involve queer themes, got entirely neutered and apparently turned into an unfocuse mess.

As for the general point about not taking accountability and instead doubling down, yeah, that's something I've struggled with before as well. Thankfully my mistakes in life so far haven't caused any harm or damage, but there have been plenty of personal interactions that I could and should've dealt with in a different way. It's something I'm working on. I'm trying to be better about saying "my bad" and acknowledging wrongdoing, rather than finding excuses and trying to lawyer-speak my way out of a situation on some technicality, to absolve me of my mistakes. I'm not sure if that's something that comes with certain political views or if that's more due to the internet, social media and having a couple of generations now that grew up in those environments.
 
Perun said:
Nobody is denying these people exist, but she is not the sole representative of a "far left".
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And the fact is, millions have radicalized into far right. 30% of the voting eligible U.S. population are MAGA die-hards. They are transforming the country into a dictatorship and are in absolute power. How is that comparable to a nutcase at a conference in Iran?
 
While I don't agree with "Death to Israel, Death to America" historical context is important.
There are countless countries that have suffered due to American intervention, have had their (often democratically elected!) governments violently overthrown. The CIA has involved itself in many coups. There are nations and people who associate America purely with the pain and suffering that they endured due to the US. A bit like how the eastern European countries see Russia.

As for the "Death to Israel", yes, there is antisemitism on the left as well. No one can deny that. But you also can't ignore that there are, once again, entire generations that know the state of Israel purely as a military force that continues to destabilize the region. Look at the kids in Gaza who are intentionally starved, who are shot in the genitals by IDF snipers when they thought they were getting aid and food, who have their parents, siblings and friends blown up in front of their eyes. It is absolutely understandable that a person who went through such traumas can grow up resenting and hating the states responsible for the root of that pain.

That said, putting any trust into Twitter accounts without actually googling something yourself in 2025 is misguided at best. Scrolling through that account for a minute shows a very clear anti-Palestinian bias. That's all I'll say on this matter.

I stand by what I mentioned earlier: Right wing extremism is on the rise and responsible for the majority of terrorist activity. The US is descending into fascism. The rule of law and the Constitution are violated by the ruling administration. A couple of left-wing influencers or activists giving a speech with inflammatory phrases is in no way comparable to what is happening on the right.
 
Lost in a lost world said:
But we do have to he careful that the left looks more like Sweden or Canada and not the USSR at any time during its existence or Barcelona circa 1936.
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Lol, Sweden is mini USA at this point. What "Left"? We're going triple down economics, New Public Management, deregulations, privatizations, the world's most extreme school system with tax funded corporate owned schools and less and less social programs.
 
Lost in a lost world said:
It’s “socialist” by American standards.

I suppose the idea most of us here have of Sweden may not reflect its political reality.

Okay, we’ll stick with Canada. I’ve yet to hear a Canadian complain much beyond nuanced politics there.
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There's massive difference between Sweden 2025 and Sweden 2005 and even more compared to the late 80s. I think the public perception of Sweden is that of how it was in the late 80's and 90s (when the transition started to happen).

You know that the education system here is broken when Trump has flaunted copying key aspects of it.
 
Lost in a lost world said:
I’ll also say this, and this may just be part of my American background.

Keeping political beliefs out of it, a lot of people I’ve known who identify as conservative have been fun to hang around as long as we have music, interest in history, sports, or something else in common.

I don’t mean far right conspiracy theory conservatives or MAGA people but the more libertarian kind who don’t hate anyone but want fewer regulations. They’re, in my opinion, misguided politically but also aren’t usually heavy political thinkers. The few who are more academic are focused on economics, foreign policy, etc, but are still tolerant on civil rights.

Lots of old school conservatives I know do not like the big spending bills the current Republican party are pushing through and think the tariffs are dumb. A few have expressed to me that they feel their political party has been hijacked and they’re waiting it out until it goes back to the way it was (sometimes they mean pre-W years). They still won’t vote Democrat, though.
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Conservatives as a whole did not used to be inherently bad people. Sure, I disagree with them on a ton of things and I think they are completely wrong on a lot of things. But we're not dealing with Conservatives anymore, we're dealing with MAGA.

MAGA is a brain-rot, brain-dead cult. It has turned American politics into a joke. Conservatives, by default, are now MAGA because they refuse to break party lines even when their party has been ripped apart from the inside out by the Cockroach King. Giving people the benefit of the doubt whom you disagree with used to be the norm. It's what made political discourse possible without treating those with different party alignments like literal enemies. Anyone who still votes Republican even while disagreeing with Trump is just as responsible as the MAGA cultists.

This is what we've been reduced to.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
Conservatives as a whole did not used to be inherently bad people. Sure, I disagree with them on a ton of things and I think they are completely wrong on a lot of things. But we're not dealing with Conservatives anymore, we're dealing with MAGA.

MAGA is a brain-rot, brain-dead cult. It has turned American politics into a joke. Conservatives, by default, are now MAGA because they refuse to break party lines even when their party has been ripped apart from the inside out by the Cockroach King. Giving people the benefit of the doubt whom you disagree with used to be the norm. It's what made political discourse possible without treating those with different party alignments like literal enemies. Anyone who still votes Republican even while disagreeing with Trump is just as responsible as the MAGA cultists.

This is what we've been reduced to.
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Pretty much this. The conservatives who disagree with MAGA and abstain from voting? Fine, I can respect that. Disagreeing with MAGA and lamenting that the GOP has been hijacked but still voting for them? That's an incredibly shitty thing to do and directly responsible for all the stunts Trump and his admin are pulling.

I don't doubt that you can have a nice evening with most of them, as long as you stay clear of politics. But I also can't respect anyone who votes for Trump, especially when they claim to be disappointed with the direction of party but do nothing to hold them accountable in any way.
 
Another thing that frustrates me:

For whatever reason the entire left is supposed to stand trial for every single fringe opinion by some random activist. One person says some wild shit and now the entire left is generalized and accused of sharing that opinion.

On the other hand you have stuff like the recent Jubilee episode, where one of the right wingers outright admits to being a fascist, got fired from his job and now raised thousands of dollars, with the help of people who share his views. And that's just one example, the overall point being that the right is never held to the same standard. We're supposed to treat them all as individuals, a courtesy that is almost never extended to the left.
 
I agree with the notion that the far right is on the rise in both the U.S. and Europe. And I don’t believe this is happening solely because of some covert pro-russian propaganda—though that definitely plays a role. I think certain aspects of preceding policies simply weren’t very wise or sustainable. For example: uncontrolled immigration.

I also agree that, for now, the far left poses a smaller threat. But I firmly believe that if those ideologues ever came to power, they’d cause just as much damage as the far right. While the far-right archetype tends to resemble barroom thugs, the far left often comes in the form of educated professors—and they’d bring in communism in a heartbeat if given the chance.

I absolutely agree that the U.S. healthcare system is bad—frankly, even frightening. I definitely prefer the European model, and I can’t understand why, after all these years, the U.S. still hasn’t managed to create something more similar. I suppose it comes down to the fact that the U.S. is a more extreme version of capitalism.

I’ve always viewed Sweden as a very socially oriented country—maybe that’s an outdated perspective, but I still find it appealing. In fact, the entire Nordic region—Denmark, the Netherlands, and so on—strikes me as quite attractive in terms of societal models.

One more thing: so far, there’s no better alternative to Western democracy—especially its European version. None. Unless, of course, you’d rather live in places like russia, China, or Cuba. And so far, South American countries haven’t exactly carved out some inspiring new path either—there are too many problems there.

The West must hold on to what it has. And yes, improve it. But veering into extremes—whether far right or far left—would be a grave mistake.
 
Azas said:
One more thing: so far, there’s no better alternative to Western democracy—especially its European version. None. Unless, of course, you’d rather live in places like russia, China, or Cuba. And so far, South American countries haven’t exactly carved out some inspiring new path either—there are too many problems there.

The West must hold on to what it has. And yes, improve it. But veering into extremes—whether far right or far left—would be a grave mistake.
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just a couple of things.

Neither Russia nor China is a communist country anymore. In fact they haven't been for a long, long time.

Regarding Cuba I disagree. Their woes are mostly brought upon them by the US and the west with the trade embargo and what not. Not that it would be perfect, but definitely it wouldn't be in the state it is today.

The Netherlands is not part of the Nordic countries and in many ways it is one of the most right, "not extreme right" countries.

Denmark is not exactly the left's golden child either. Especially considering the way they treat immigrants. Finland has gone far right and just a couple of years ago I was talking with a Greek living in Sweden and he said to me a lot of Swedes vote far right, I think it was over 10% ag the time, but they just don't admit it.

Small wonder these countries appeal to republicans. Europe is being Americanized very fast.
 
And one more thing. The social structure you admire was mostly put inplace by leftists. The right is just trying to dismantle/privatize them, but it's not easy to do. If they had their way Europe would be America now.
 
Aggelos said:
Denmark is not exactly the left's golden child either. Especially considering the way they treat immigrants. Finland has gone far right and just a couple of years ago I was talking with a Greek living in Sweden and he said to me a lot of Swedes vote far right, I think it was over 10% ag the time, but they just don't admit it.
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10% my ass. Try around 20% this last election, but the Moderates and the Christian Conservatives have a slice of that voter category as well. The Sweden Democrats, far-right, are in a coalition with the current government since 2022 and have pushed through a lot of policy.
 
Yax said:
10% my ass. Try around 20% this last election, but the Moderates and the Christian Conservatives have a slice of that voter category as well.
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that conversation was 2-3 years ago, maybe a bit more. But of course you know better being Swedish and all. It's a shame though, Scandinavian countries used to be model countries for a lot of people. Maybe we had just idealized them, don't know.
 
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