USA Politics

[Perun]

The long and short is, housing shouldn't be treated as a commodity. From an economic point of view it should be treated as infrastructure. You can do premium upgrades the same way you can sell Ferraris when there is public transportation available, but the basic demand must be met without profit interests in mind. For the very simple reason that if he can't have a place to live in, a person will not go to your company to make money for you.

 

[Vaenyr]

Weren't the US and Israel the only UN countries back in 2021 to vote against the right to food?

I wonder if this is because of the typical "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" mentality. So many folks who are actively voting against their interests in the name of team sports.

 

[Vaenyr]

Another phrase I've heard a bunch that fits is that many see themselves as "temporarily embarassed millionaires". Despite being much closer to poverty than to riches, they see themselves as having the potential of becoming one of the rich, if only a couple of things in life go right. At the same time they are one wrong step away from bankruptcy.

A lady I know from the US had to undergo lifesaving brain surgery, which wiped away all her savings. Her husband died at some point, so now she's left taking care of her three kids and barely living paycheck to paycheck. The actions of the current admin are making it all but impossible for her to make it through the next four years. Obviously just an anecdote, but people haven't really felt Trump's economic catastrophe yet; things are going to become far worse.

 

[Azas]

So now Alice Cooper is saying that not everything was great under the Democrats… (Yeah, I know—it’s just an opinion, but still, worth noting.)
Blabbermouth article

"Asked if he liked Trump when they spent time together, Cooper responded: "We got along okay. Look, America has been having a slow-motion nervous breakdown for a while now. It got so 'woke' with the [Joe] Biden people, even they thought it was crazy. If a guy says to a coworker, 'I like your new dress,' that means he now gets fired? That's crazy. It got so over the top that whoever ran against the Democrats was going to win. America got sick of the stupidness, and all I can say is, in a shooting war, you don't want a poodle; you want a pitbull."

Vaenyr often repeated that Kamala didn’t run on a woke or progressive agenda—and that’s fair. But it’s also fair to acknowledge that, for some people, the situation in the country had already gone too far.

I still wouldn’t vote for Trump, but the Democrats have, in many ways, become their own worst enemies.

 

[Vaenyr]

It's not news that a huge chunk of voters is uninformed and doesn't know anything about current politics. Alice's claim is verifiably untrue, it just feels like that to him. Feelings over facts. Once we actually look at campaigns, at policies, at how much money was spent on certain ads, it is undeniable that the only ones focusing on culture war issues were the GOP, not the Dems.

An old, washed-out rocker is not who I'd ask for political analysis. It actually says quite a bit about the level of discourse if we have to stoop to such levels to try and push "anti-woke" articles, just because the centrists are butthurt. At this point I'm convinced that if this thread was around during the Civil Rights movement, we'd have multiple people posting dozens upon dozens of comments against the movement.

Edit: To elaborate on why I think this line of argument is meaningless. I could easily find and provide quotes from other musicians or celebrities who believe that the dems aren't left (or "woke" I suppose) enough. That this is an issue and that this is the problem with the Dems. By the same logic as in Azas' post that would mean that we should take those views seriously and push for the Dems to embrace the culture wars, right? Or do we selectively apply these logical arguments only to the side that agrees with us and we conveniently ignore them when the same exact argument, thought through to its logical conclusion, ends up disproving our own points? In other words, it might feel nice to read an interview with a random musician who reinforces your view, but it doesn't actually mean anything nor does it make a difference in any way.

 

[Azas]

And still, you don’t have the guts to admit that not everything the Democrats did was right or timely. Funny how the mods rolled out strict rules about no name-calling or personal attacks, yet here you are calling Alice Cooper a “washed-out rocker.”

Honestly, I think he’s far from uninformed. The guy travels constantly and talks to people from all walks of life. He’s not living in a bubble, and I believe he’s speaking some truth.

Both U.S. parties need to sit down and have a real, grown-up conversation. One side needs to rein it in a bit, and the other needs to be more open to change. That’s the only way we’re going to end up with future presidents who are sane, steady, and actually predictable.

 

[Vaenyr]

And still, you don’t have the guts to admit that not everything the Democrats did was right or timely.

Huh? I've criticized the Dems time and time again and have clearly stated multiple times over literal months what my grievances with them are, namely that they are moving to the right, which is a losing strategy.

Funny how the mods rolled out strict rules about no name-calling or personal attacks, yet here you are calling Alice Cooper a “washed-out rocker.”

Is Alice Cooper a forum member? Do I have to be respectful when talking about Trump or Putin as well? If you think I crossed a like, report my comment and let the mods/admins deal with it.

Honestly, I think he’s far from uninformed. The guy travels constantly and talks to people from all walks of life. He’s not living in a bubble, and I believe he’s speaking some truth.

Easy counter examples: Ted Nugent and Jon Schaffer. Traveling doesn't automatcally inform you.

Both U.S. parties need to sit down and have a real, grown-up conversation. One side needs to rein it in a bit, and the other needs to be more open to change. That’s the only way we’re going to end up with future presidents who are sane, steady, and actually predictable.

One side is literally descending into fascism. The other wants LGBTQ people to not get lynched. Somehow these things are supposed to be equal lmao

Given recent events I'd love to hear how those who voted for Trump feel about voting for a child rapist. That's far more relevant than a random musician's opinion.

 

[Jer]

Alice's claim is verifiably untrue

Of course different candidates polled differently, and issue potency was more of a factor than the perceived wokeness of the Democratic brand; but it is true that the “D” next to someone’s name makes them politically poisonous in large swaths of the country due to that perceived wokeness of the party.

it is undeniable that the only ones focusing on culture war issues were the GOP, not the Dems.

Currently stated positions are meaningless if they’re trumped by historically stated ones, and/or baked-in historical impressions.

An old, washed-out rocker

Ad hominem.

the centrists are butthurt. At this point I'm convinced that if this thread was around during the Civil Rights movement, we'd have multiple people posting dozens upon dozens of comments against the movement.

Lovely — so now you’re intimating that those who disagree with you would be racists if they’d just been born 2 or 3 decades earlier.

Your behavior is no more civilized than that of the supposed mouth-breathers you so gleefully attack left and right. If you wonder why some people hate progressives, take a long, hard look in the mirror.

(Now do your predictable little backpatting strut and put me on ignore again.)

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Mostly, I just find Alice's quote to be profoundly silly.

If a guy says to a coworker, 'I like your new dress,' that means he now gets fired? That's crazy.

Where did this happen? WTF is he talking about? Is he claiming sexual harassment in the workplace is a "woke" staple? Is it "woke" to have HR at your company? He's not making the point he thinks he is here, and, as usual with most things said by people decrying "wokeness", it sounds like an old man yelling at a cloud.

in a shooting war, you don't want a poodle; you want a pitbull.

Ah yes, because pitbulls are renowned for their superiority with firearms.

Feelings over facts.

Yes, that is all this is. Nothing he's talking about here is factual in any way. It's just more, "I talked to people and IDK they seem bothered by things that are entirely non-specific and have zero reference points! Ahhhhh damn wokeness!"

Both U.S. parties need to sit down and have a real, grown-up conversation. One side needs to rein it in a bit, and the other needs to be more open to change.

Which party needs to do which? Also, neither of those shifts are extreme enough. One side (MAGA) needs to stop being greedy fascists who use racism and sexism in their goal of ultimate power, one side (Dems) needs to actually go all in on anything and stop trying to play to both sides and appease centrists. The other third side (Republicans) need to come out of their hidey holes and actually stand for something again, which they'll never do as long as MAGA lives.

Given recent events I'd love to hear how those who voted for Trump feel about voting for a child rapist.

Who is that? What recent events? If you heard it from anywhere but Trump's mouth, it's obviously all lies. Obama did it!

 

[Azas]

I'm not the kind of person to "report" users on this forum—I don't like that kind of attitude. Back in Stalin's time, people in russia reported or denounced each other just to avoid prison or gain privileges. It’s a mindset I want nothing to do with.
And regarding your previous edit—let’s be honest, the very reason we’re having this conversation is because the Democrats lost to a man with a highly questionable reputation. That alone says a lot about the deeper problems and tensions within society.

 

[Vaenyr]

I'm not the kind of person to "report" users on this forum—I don't like that kind of attitude.

I give you my full blessing. Please go ahead and do it, so that the mods can clear up any confusion. Or should I just report the comment myself?

And regarding your previous edit—let’s be honest, the very reason we’re having this conversation is because the Democrats lost to a man with a highly questionable reputation. That alone says a lot about the deeper problems and tensions within society.

Yes, they lost miserably while moving right and having an objectively more right wing campaign than they did in 2020. Something I've been shouting from the rooftops for months at this point. Turns out left leaning people are not interested in a GOP-lite party. They prefer progressive policies which are overwhelmingly popular across the political spectrum (even conservatives have been polled and voiced support, but turned around once they found out that a Democrat proposed said policy).

I'm not really interested in once again repeating something that has been discussed to death in this thread, multiple times over multiple months. I'll return to the current events and talk about those, rather than arguing about a random musician yelling at clouds over things that aren't actually happening. See ya in a couple of months when the next opinion piece is posted, I suppose. Best of luck in the meantime!

 

[LooseCannon]

You're certainly allowed to make fun of various public figures if you see fit, as long as it's not driving the conversation down a rabbit hole of yelling back and forth, or in the case of Iron Maiden, going to make a moderator invoke the RLonger rule for lessening overall enjoyment. However, don't get upset when someone calls out an hominem, either, especially if you're trying to have a serious political debate.

However, you will all post with a modicum of respect towards one another, and I feel this conversation is trending towards that not being true. That is true of multiple people over the last little bit, so I'm not singling each other out. If you cannot post calmly and politely, without snide comments at each other, then I will thread ban you. And that's not based on who I think is right or wrong, but who cares for this community and treats it with respect.

 

[Magnus]

Is Alice Cooper a forum member?

I am, and you called me a liar, remember?

 

[Diesel 11]

Vaenyr often repeated that Kamala didn’t run on a woke or progressive agenda—and that’s fair. But it’s also fair to acknowledge that, for some people, the situation in the country had already gone too far.

My one counterargument is that this is not a result of reality, but rather a result of propaganda from outlets such as Fox News and the campaigns of Trump and other Republicans.

I live in what’s considered the South and I can tell you that ‘woke’ barely exists here. My partner (a trans man) was discriminated against at work and nothing was done about it despite his HR report (long story). Minorities in America have far from taken over and if ‘woke’ actually exists then I’d love to see it.

 

[Perun]

 

[Mosh]

I actually do think there is a conversation to be had about political correctness and how some people on the left engage with ideas that they aren’t comfortable with.

But…

1: The right has problems with this too.

2: I can’t take any argument that uses the term “wokeness” unironically seriously.

3: This all seems secondary to the civil rights violations happening now and the party in power conducting the biggest wealth transfer in history to destroy the middle class. This nebulous discussion on wokeness is the argument that the aristocracy wants you to have because it’s a distraction.

 

[Jer]

I can’t take any argument that uses the term “wokeness” unironically seriously.

I could continue to put it in quotes every time I use it, but the reality is that the right wing has successfully co-opted the term and changed its standard definition. We can keep pretending that isn’t true, or we can accept it and move on. I’ve chosen the latter.

This nebulous discussion on wokeness is the argument that the aristocracy wants you to have because it’s a distra

I feel compelled to point out that you just used the word “wokeness” unironically seriously in the very next argument you made after complaining about it. (And the quotes here are a literal quote, so I’m not being hypocritical in my own use of them.)

As far as the substance of the conversation is concerned, the left needs to have this discussion much more broadly and openly if they want to start winning elections again. One could argue that avoiding that discussion also plays into the hands of the aristocracy.

 

[Mosh]

Was I calling something woke or accusing someone/something of wokeness? I think my point was made, as much as you would like to attempt to obfuscate.

 

[Jer]

Was I calling something woke or accusing someone/something of wokeness?

I don’t see where you called that out in your initial complaint as a caveat, but we can all pretend you didn’t make a mistake if that makes you feel better.

And I responded to the substance of your argument too, so I’m not sure where this accusation of obfuscation is coming from.

 

[Azas]

My one counterargument is that this is not a result of reality, but rather a result of propaganda from outlets such as Fox News and the campaigns of Trump and other Republicans.

I live in what’s considered the South and I can tell you that ‘woke’ barely exists here. My partner (a trans man) was discriminated against at work and nothing was done about it despite his HR report (long story). Minorities in America have far from taken over and if ‘woke’ actually exists then I’d love to see it.

I'm sorry to hear that — that sounds incredibly frustrating and unfair.