Let's try and get 1,000,000 replies to this post

A word of caution here. If anybody was to hire an outside legal team to argue your case - Look for other alternatives than Rudy Giuliani. He won't make you look good in the courtroom, I'll tell you that much.
 
I actually looked up the lyrics and
Midnight said:
These lyrics are even blunter than Dream Theater's!
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Yeah, my first immediate thought as well. Never though someone might outdo the ineptitude and awkwardness of

"He's my brother, but I love her"

or "I shall give him a better life // I swore this vow to my dying wife // Sure, she would not survive"

or "I shut the door and traveled to another home // I met an older man, he seemed to be alone // I felt that I could trust him // He talked to me that night"

or even "Father, is it true // Bug was always you? // Finally, I can reveal // How music makes me feel!".


Or all those sundry descriptions of mental illnesses written late at night with too much to drink and a psych-textbook open by like "Should this be fight or flight? // I don't know why I'm constantly so uptight" or "He learned to walk and talk on time // But never cared much to be held"


...Or a friggin combination of both in About to Crash:

"She can't stop pacing // She never felt so alive // Her thoughts are racing // Set on overdrive ... Even though she seems so high // ... Now she sleeps the days away // She helplessly stands by // It's meaningless to try // All she wants to do is cry"

+

"She was raised in a small midwestern town
By a charming and eccentric loving father"

but Iced Eearth actually managed to. It's like Petrucci on cocaine, that second stanza absolutely killed me.

Never underestimate tr00 metal, indeed.
 
I dunno Judas, those are pretty heavy to topple. I think IE’s lyrics are better; at least they mean something. And at least Barlow can sing...
 
Mean something? On the contrary, I think that the problem with all these lyrics is that they actually mean too much. This is not exactly Yes we're talking about.

Plus while most (heck, all) of those songs above are at least somewhat sappy, neither uses the cheap sentiment as bluntly as the Iced Earth song does, which annoys me by itself. Even the thriving wife with unfulfilled life that did strive to survive and definitely did her hair in a beehive is just one throwaway line in the song, however stupid one.
It's no "oh, you fallen vaguely described comrade, I know you're *somewhere* 'up there', we'll sing it macho, in that 'even the toughest of men do cry' sort of way, that's gonna work for our listeners, right? Everybody can relate! Raise your beers to the unspecified dead!"

But to be fair I do admit that music-wise it's very nice, actually one of the better IE songs in general and it is a great metal ballad, indeed.

As for Barlow... yes, to paraphrase a certain web review, Barlow is undeniably a vocalist. Brimming with exhaled air, vocal folds and mouth position, as well as utilising a body posture, this is a vocal performance done by a human being that can irrefutably be described as existent. Truly one of the voices 1998's metal has to offer.
 
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Jer said:
The Forum Games Supreme Court may have to rule on whether controversial songs count as ballads or not. If @Black Wizard doesn’t return from exile in time, I suppose @Yax and I would have to reach unanimous approval.

P.S. I like beer.
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Uh, no, clearly there would be a nomination to fill the vacancy. We need an ideological ballads conservative to ensure this is a tightly constrained game.
 
Why, search no more! You'll hardly find anyone else more ideological, more conservative and with legal experience to boot!

:ninja:
 
That's a tricky one. Considering all the "Metallica ballads" (Fade to Black, Welcome Home, One, The Day that Never Comes) would be probably accepted, I'd weigh in on it being allowed as well, because it seems to follow the same structure, or at least a similar one (it even goes back to soft in the end). And I'd vote for the Court being internally consistent in its voting, being rather reluctant to succumb to wanton arbitrariness and nontransparency.

On its own, I don't think it fits the paradigm as well as the aforementioned Watching Over Me and its heavy and fast part takes probably too much time and place for me to classify it as a ballad with an easy mind.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
Plus while most (heck, all) of those songs above are at least somewhat sappy, neither uses the cheap sentiment as bluntly as the Iced Earth song does, which annoys me by itself. Even the thriving wife with unfulfilled life that did strive to survive and definitely did her hair in a beehive is just one throwaway line in the song, however stupid one.
It's no "oh, you fallen vaguely described comrade, I know you're *somewhere* 'up there', we'll sing it macho, in that 'even the toughest of men do cry' sort of way, that's gonna work for our listeners, right? Everybody can relate! Raise your beers to the unspecified dead!"
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Unspecified? It's glaringly obvious the song is about Schaffer's best friend who died and about Schaffer's very personal feelings about this. As a matter of fact, it's the exact opposite of what you say in the italics there. But to be honest, I'm not sure I understand your post correctly, especially because I have no clue what this wife/beehive stuff is about.
 
LooseCannon said:
Uh, no, clearly there would be a nomination to fill the vacancy. We need an ideological ballads conservative to ensure this is a tightly constrained game.
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But I thought Moscow @Mosh was against filling Forum Games Supreme Court vacancies in an election year...? Surely he wouldn’t backpedal on such a bedrock principle!
 
Perun said:
Unspecified? It's glaringly obvious the song is about Schaffer's best friend who died and about Schaffer's very personal feelings about this. As a matter of fact, it's the exact opposite of what you say in the italics there. But to be honest, I'm not sure I understand your post correctly, especially because I have no clue what this wife/beehive stuff is about.
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Well, the description of the friend within the song is just so vague it could fit anyone. Yes, Wikipedia says who it is supposed to be about, but both the person and the feelings, true as they may be, feel really generic, that's what I was talking about. How about talking about how he was? Was he the rambunctious one or the voice of reason in that pairing that lived recklessly? About how this specific place they bled in a cup and drank it haunts him in his memory or even when he visits it nowadays, with that dry oak that stands there? Did they separate or kept in touch from time to time? How did he die, even? Did he drown? Took his life? Succumbed to a disease? Drank himself to death? Didn't fasten his seatbelts?

Just rubs me the wrong way, because it seems to be tailored so that anyone could relate - that's what I was complaining about there in the italics. We all have our muertos, right? Just basic tear-jerking, nothing really specific or original. So I guess I disagree with you saying it's obviously very personal - I strive to find any personality whatsoever there, in the lyrics at least. Okay, the "am I selfish for feeling this way", that gets close, I admit.

The wife/beehive was making fun of the DT lyric, which again, uses a completely vague and non-descript "person to mourn" (a wife of the protagonist), whom we never get to know, but the song's not all about it, in fact it's just one line, so I don't find it to be mining cheap sentiment as much.

The IE song seems to be all about that, that's why I made the distinction between those two, because someone might say "hey, but DT also use the dead wife".

You find it relatable, okay, good for you (like I said, musically I actually really like the song, so you have all the more reasons to like it), but especially since it was supposed to be about someone Schaffer cared about, the lyrics really don't manage to get the point across. Just like the Dream Theater lyrics about mental illnesses - doesn't feel like the person really know what they're talking about, more like trying to write a song about it as an outsider. Which Schaffer isn't -> that's bonus points. The rest is simply the lines sound cringy.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
That's a tricky one. Considering all the "Metallica ballads" (Fade to Black, Welcome Home, One, The Day that Never Comes) would be probably accepted, I'd weigh in on it being allowed as well, because it seems to follow the same structure, or at least a similar one (it even goes back to soft in the end). And I'd vote for the Court being internally consistent in its voting, being rather reluctant to succumb to wanton arbitrariness and nontransparency.

On its own, I don't think it fits the paradigm as well as the aforementioned Watching Over Me and its heavy and fast part takes probably too much time and place for me to classify it as a ballad with an easy mind.
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This is exactly what I think. It’s not the most obvious of ballads, but ballads don’t always have to have quiet verses and big choruses. The music is dripping with emotion, as is the singing. I mean, here’s what Wikipedia has to say:

A sentimental ballad is an emotional style of music that often deals with romantic and intimate relationships, and to a lesser extent, loneliness, death, war, drug abuse, politics and religion, usually in a poignant but solemn manner. Ballads are generally melodic enough to get the listener's attention.​

Personally I think Prophecy fits that description pretty well. It’s melodic, it’s emotional, and deals with death in a poignant and solemn manner. The one thing is that the middle section isn’t exactly slow, but not all ballads are slow. I’d say it’s as much a ballad as Children Of The Damned, which is typically held up as one of Maiden’s ballads. They’re not power ballads, they’re metal ballads, and some strayings from style is sure to be seen.

I’d probably consider Dracula a ballad too, but that one’s even shakier I’d think.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
Well, the description of the friend within the song is just so vague it could fit anyone. Yes, Wikipedia says who it is supposed to be about, but both the person and the feelings, true as they may be, feel really generic, that's what I was talking about. How about talking about how he was? Was he the rambunctious one or the voice of reason in that pairing that lived recklessly? About how this specific place they bled in a cup and drank it haunts him in his memory or even when he visits it nowadays, with that dry oak that stands there? Did they separate or kept in touch from time to time? How did he die, even? Did he drown? Took his life? Succumbed to a disease? Drank himself to death? Didn't fasten his seatbelts?
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Do we really need this information? It's a song, not a book or a film, it's not supposed to tell a story but simply to convey certain thoughts and feelings. The song isn't about his friend dying - it's about the feeling that he is still with him. It's about Schaffer coping with the loss by embracing the feeling that the loss isn't total. The real emotional weight of the song is in the chorus, the verses are a tool to explain the meaning. I don't see how describing things like the way he died or the details of how they sealed their blood brotherhood would enhance the impact or our appreciation of what Schaffer is telling us.

Yeah, sure, "I feel it once again, it's overwhelming me" is a rather non-descript line on it's own, but embedded in the song and with the delivery it gets, it is powerful. We learn all we need to know about Schaffer's friend and their relationship to understand the mix of pain, sadness and comfort that the song is about. It's not a song about a kid falling off his motorbike.
 
I have no issue with the ambiguity of the story in Watching Over Me. If anything, it needs more of it.

The Dream Theater comparisons here are apt in that they both take "emotional" songs and write lyrics that are so direct that, for some people, it robs the song of additional emotional weight. It's terrible that his friend died, but the lyrics shouldn't literally be, "my friend died."

I'm also not arguing that Watching Over Me is a bad song, it's a great song, but the lyrics are absolutely the weakest part and it does not belong anywhere near a list of "best metal ballads". Nearly every other Iced Earth ballad has better lyrics.
 
I really get your point, @MrKnickerbocker, the lyrics are very direct and prosaic. But I just can't help but feel it's meant to be this way. Schaffer isn't a poet, it seems to me that he felt this is the most honest way of getting his feelings across. If these lyrics were written by someone who has set higher standards for himself, I'd be onboard with you. But with Schaffer, I think this really is the best way he felt he could do it, and I would judge the artistic merit by those standards.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
If anything, it needs more of it.
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In fact, after consideration, this is what I actually wanted to write.

and
Perun said:
I really get your point, @MrKnickerbocker, the lyrics are very direct and prosaic. But I just can't help but feel it's meant to be this way. Schaffer isn't a poet, it seems to me that he felt this is the most honest way of getting his feelings across. If these lyrics were written by someone who has set higher standards for himself, I'd be onboard with you. But with Schaffer, I think this really is the best way he felt he could do it, and I would judge the artistic merit by those standards.
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you kinda stole my point, Per, though we still disagree, because he could work much better even with what he had.

First of all, I really dislike the rule "show, don't tell", because I think it gave us much more bad literature than if it didn't exist. Most of the writers I really love had a habit of breaking that rule quite often. BUT there is a reason it's being said and hammered into the heads of beginning writers - you have to be a good writer to be able to break that rule correctly. If you lack the capability (or even practice) you're better sticking to showing, just to be on the safe side.

And that brings us to this song - indeed, it'd be better if it was less concrete, actually, serving as a hauntingly vivid psychological poem. But from the lyrics themselves and their clunkiness it seems that Schaffer was incapable of doing that (and he thankfully probably realized that), lacking the poetic feeling or literary competence.

But I think he could still go the "show" route and put there more of that slice of life, journalary quality that makes for example King's prose so interesting and intriguing and makes you feel like he's actually telling something and that he's much cleverer and wiser than he actually is. He could make it more personal and therefore endearing. It would overcome his limits and he actually had the experience so he didn't even have to make it up.

Or, to put it bluntly, he probably wasn't able to "tell", but he could still "show", yet in the end he did neither.

That said, I kinda get why it works for you, especially with that music, just on their own the lyrics are way too concrete to be admirable and way too abstract to be interesting. Feels slightly childish, even, especially combined with the clunkiness. I never even noticed that when I merely listened to the song, but seeing the lyrics on paper (eh, screen), it was a bit too striking for me. Combined with its emotional aim it just felt too much like a "let's make the truck driver cry" and I have absolutely nothing against neither crying nor truck drivers. I am a country fan, after all.


Also, let me put here for the record that I actually liked the song, but I like it much less now, because with this discussion it's been playing in my head for the better part of these past two days and I'm already getting sick of it.
 
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