Official Star Wars Thread

I wouldn't mind a simple story in the sense of a straightforward plot and focus on a small group of core characters. The Star Wars universe does not have a great deal of complexity or depth, so keeping it simple is probably a good idea. The acid test is if they can create new characters with the same charm as the old ones - that comes down to a strange alchemy of writing, direction and acting. As far as the plot goes, as long as it has some fresh ideas and doesn't hit too many beats from the original films, that's fine. (New Luke fighting New Emperor on New Death Star - that would be dull).

My prediction is that the movie will be competently made, mostly enjoyable, but ultimately a lot less engaging and memorable than the original series, because Star Wars is no longer an offbeat project that can take risks but a massive commercial venture that must play it safe and accomodate studio pressures and the trends of the day.

That said, I can't help being excited. :jedi:
 
Shit, I decided to start avoiding spoilerous stuff, yet I keep shooting myself in the foot one time after another, lol. Beware the new Entertainment Weekly coverage, there's a lot of revealing photos. Man, now my brain starts putting pieces together on its own, I hate it. I was ok with the full trailer, but anything new that came after feels like being robbed bit by bit :p
 
I had a Star Wars Prequel Trilogy marathon the other day. I haven't seen any of the movies in about 6-7 years and wanted to prepare for the new one.

I stand by my statement that prequels aren't bad, but I do think they have many flaws.

The Phantom Menace
I forgot how freaking annoying Jar Jar was, holy shit. One of the most annoying characters ever. Just his appearance alone makes this the worst Star Wars movie. Pacing is a bit off; the whole Tattoine / podracing subplot should've been shorter. Obi Wan and Qui Gon were pretty badass. Darth Maul was underused but his fight scenes were great. I also didn't mind the kid who played Anakin (I think he also gets hate for his performance but he was solid for his age).

Attack Of The Clones
Anakin was at times way too creepy and obsessed with Padmé. Also cringey with the whole "I want to prevent death" thing... I absolutely don't blame him for slaughtering those savages though. There are many awesome parts tho, like Obi Wan vs Jango Fett at Kamino (awesome visuals there), the big arena fight, Yoda vs. Dooku etc. Dooku was a bit better than Darth Maul in terms of character development, but I thought he was a bit too agile with all the flipping and jumping... Just couldn't suspend my belief since I knew Christopher Lee couldn't pull that off :D Also, thank fuck Jar Jar's role was minimal.

Revenge Of The Sith
Anakin was behaving like a moron non-stop, but I kinda see him as one anyway... makes Darth Vader less scary in retrospect, but again, couldn't see someone smart siding with the Sith in the first place. Thought the Padme dying at childbirth subplot a bit confusing too. Positives are that effects were better than ever, fights were better than ever. Especially the Obi Wan vs. Anakin fight on Mustafar which is IMO one of the most epic fights ever. Also John Williams knocked it out of the park with the soundtrack, just mezmerizing from start to finish.

The Phantom Menace is the weakest, but it's tough to decide between Attack and Revenge for the best... Attack is more even, while Revenge has more highs but also more lows. Will have Original Trilogy Marathon at the end of the month.
 
I'm at the point where I can defend all of the criticisms lobbied against the prequels, whether it be the tone of the movies (it was ordinary for the time it was released, just look at the Matrix), Jar Jar (tolerable, and intended to lighten the mood of the movie for kids, and they did cut him out of the movies as they progressed because of the backlash he got), the romance (some of the lines are cringe-worthy, but some scenes work quite well between Padme and Anakin, like the announcement of her pregnancy in Sith). Even midichlorians, despite how stupid I think they are, since they were a part of Lucas's plan for the original trilogy. That doesn't make them great movies, but I still stand by them to be good movies, just lacking the heart of the originals.

I still stand that Sith is a better film than Jedi though, and that Empire Strikes Back is by far the best in the series. I expect the new trilogy to match the tone of cinema at the moment, which is a nice blend, whereas summer blockbusters were shite in the late 90's.
 
Attack of the Clones is easily the worst Star Wars movie. Of the 3 prequel movies I think the special effects have aged the worst in that one. The Phantom Menace at least used some real sets, it's very obvious in Clones that the whole thing was shot in front of a computer (minus the stuff on Tatooine which isn't too bad visually). Plus all the time devoted to the Padme/Anakin thing really ruins it. All the lightsaber battles (ironically) are very boring too IMO. I hate Count Dooku as a villain. It should've been Darth Maul through the entire trilogy, with Episode II being more devoted to giving him a backstory. And it gives the characters more motivation. I'm still not sure why they were going after him, besides that he was a Sith.

Also Anakin is way more annoying in Clones than Sith.
 
The backgrounds look great, especially on Kamino, but more sets would be a welcome addition.

Maul should have been the villain throughout the trilogy, I agree, but Christopher Lee was a powerhouse actor, and added a lot of presence to a relatively underwritten character. They probably should have kept him in, sans the Darth Tyrannus stuff, which feels rushed.
 
I like prequels. It's quite annoying to deal with all the hate online ;) I grew up on them, so I suppose to me they were magical just like the original trilogy was for the majority of fans. I was 6 when TPM came out (I was already into Star Wars, though) and 12 for RotS, so basically throughout my childhood these films were absolutely the biggest thing for me. Obviously, now I can see there are many problems with them, but all the faults are things you don't pay attention to as a kid and probably because of that I somehow learned to ignore and forgive for all what's messed up. However, I think people exaggerate many of the problems.

I have to say, the hate out there is just crazy and sometimes it's very difficult for me to comprehend it. Not because I like the films personally, but because I would imagine that majority of fans would at least respect Lucas' vision. I don't know, I don't want to argue about whether or not the criticism within the fanbase is rational, because there is another property I'm a huge fan of, that faces a threat of being profaned. :p So maybe soon I will understand and experience this kind of hate.

To me the best thing about the prequels is that they made the universe of Star Wars so much bigger. We saw some interesting planets, races, some new themes in the story and most importantly the Jedi Order in its prime. Visually (I mean art direction - CG ages not that well) prequels are amazing. Not to mention the soundtrack. Overall I like 1-3 music much more than 4-6. Besides, I really like the Clone Wars period in EU (now Legends). NOT the 3D animated series! I hate it. The Tartakovsky's one was fantastic, though.

Having said that, of course, I'm not claiming prequels>OT. I appreciate all the films the same. While I think Empire is for sure the best film out of the 6, Revenge is still probably my favourite because of all the sentiment. Anyway, I count on TFA to become my new favourite Episode. It's very likely to happen.
 
Glad you guys enjoy the prequels. I can watch 'em. I can even get lost in some of 'em. But I can't say I like them, or even that I find them to be good movies.

I respect what George Lucas tried to do, but he tried and failed. A better director and writer might have taken his concepts for the prequels and made them truly epic. But for every step he made that was good, he made three that were poor. Some of those might be hindsight things, but some of them definitely should have been obvious.

For every cool moment, there's a Jar-Jar stepping in the poopy. For every meaningful, emotional set-piece, there's a 50's diner manned by a fat guy. For every necessary & interesting lightsaber battle, there's two unnecessary ones. For reference, I'm very excited to see the concepts that there won't be a lot of lightsabers in Episode VII. They should be special. Make me want it.

Lucas did a lot of stuff because he could. But that just makes me think about his original concepts for things like Han Solo and Luke. And how glad we are that he didn't get to do those things.

RTC, this spoiler is for you:

Lucas is the Vince Russo of science fiction.
 
I think Lucas assumed that massive battles with tons of Jedi knights and lightsabers everywhere was something Star Wars fans were desperate to see. And maybe he was right. I guess the problem is more that there were no stakes involved. Take the arena battle in Attack of the Clones: it should've been this massive battle that was building since the first film, but the conflict was so unclear and the enemy fighters were so useless that it was hard to care about anything going on. It looks like a computer game.

If you had the same exact battle but with the Jedi army fighting an actual threat and the conflict was clear, it would've been much better. Maybe some version of the Sith Troopers from KOTOR. Did those battle droids even kill a single Jedi?
 
The droids, and by extension, the Confederates actually killed a lot of Jedi in that battle. Sure, they were just background characters tbat died, but I'd honestly buy the droids as bigger threats than the stormtroopers. All the stromtroopers got done was take over the Tantive IV (I don't count Hoth because that was mostly the walkers muscling through the Rebel defence, not the infantry themselves). Plus, the droids have some nice designs, like the droideka, which allows some creativity for fights.

The thing I don't understand about the prequel hate is that people don't seem to realise that the originals have problems too. Remember the Jabba scene that goes on too long in Jedi? The Ewoks? The incompetence of the Stormtroopers? The inconsistency? These are all minor things that hardly spoil the movie for me, but people seem to maximize the flaws of the prequels to the nth degree, whilst blissfully ignoring the issues of the originals. Are the originals better movies? Definitely, they have a lot more heart to them and establish a better story. The prequels messed around with what was popular at the time, which didn't work out in the long run and make it seem dated. But the action's much better, the acting is pretty damn good for the most part (and when it isn't, it's evidentially due to bad directing) and there's still a solidified story. It's not so much the things that the prequels do wrong that make the originals better for me, it's just that the originals do the essential elements better. And there's nothing wrong with that.

LC, I know he's not a sci-fi director, but that comparison goes hand in hand with Shyamalan. They must be blood brothers.
 
RTC said:
The droids, and by extension, the Confederates actually killed a lot of Jedi in that battle.
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On screen? I'm watching the movie again on friday so I'll be paying more attention to that.

I don't dismiss the problems in the original movies. They are definitely not flawless. Especially the first one, the acting from Hamill and Fisher is almost cringeworthy at times and an argument could be made that it was saved in editing. Return of the Jedi has its fair share of issues too. But that just proves how far a good story and relatable characters go.
 
My partner is SW nuts & has read hundreds of EU books. She loves the older movies & was disappointed with the prequels. As a consequence I've seen all of the movies as if I was a fan; had endless discussions about EU, Lucas, etc. As someone who grew up very uninfluenced by television & film (I never had a TV in the house until the early 90's & didn't have a video player until the mid-90's) I feel I have a fairly unbiased view of the films as films; & certainly in respect to the originals I have, like probably some of the younger folks on here, zero nostalgia for them, as they formed no part of my childhood.

I quite like the fact that in the beginning SW was, pretty much, the vision of just one man, Lucas. I like this secondary world format; very like Tolkien's Middle-earth. Tolkien's estate has controlled his vision & tried to stop it's dilution; and I like this model. I'm not a supporter of collaborative imaginative efforts. Lucas & SW pretty much had this & at least you can say that for them. Now, with Disney, this has gone; and with it quite a lot of my interest. The EU was the work of many hands (as I said, not something I'm a great fan of); but they've now thrown out most of this too. What a total waste that was, unless you simply consider all those books as mere cash generators.

The originals have this aged patina, this cinematic charm; opinions are also undoubtedly clouded by the enjoyment of these films in childhood. But as I said, I never had this, so don't feel I carry any of this baggage. I think they look better because most of it was set & model work. I think Lucas combined SF, drama, & storytelling ("Space Opera") more effectively then anyone else at that time. I also think the films managed to deflect away snobbish criticism of taking themselves too seriously by being on the surface light-hearted & humorous, while having some reasonably adult themes woven beneath the surface; they therefore appealed to adults & kids. They weren't like modern kids films that have those wink-to-the-adults lines/jokes for the parents; they just naturally had broad appeal.

The prequels haven't aged well at all & are now looking very of their time, in a crap way. However, other than the special effects, I don't think the "SF/drama/storytelling" element is really that inferior. The dialogue & acting was never amazing in any of the films; I think you have to lay the blame for most of this with Lucas. He cast many at the time unknown actors (admirable enough), the scripts in terms of dialogue weren't good enough, & he directed them. The acting is certainly worse in the prequels. And Jar Jar is intolerably annoying. Movie ruining annoying.

But the primary appeal for me (as a SF, Fantasy, Horror, genre book reader) is in the secondary world & how this was presented to me; the film visuals & how this was all brought to life. Beyond that, I think the storytelling is unoriginal (what isn't?) & handled in average fashion. Characters & drama rarely interest me, so none of that stuff makes for compelling viewing for me. Lucas did handle that stuff pretty well considering the fantasy secondary world frame & the inability for quite a lot of people to see past this. All in, they're certainly "classic" cinema; but, like most genre cinema/literature, unfairly criticised because of the presenting framework. Very good films, but doubtful if any of Lucas' work should be elevated to beyond this status.
 
Mosh said:
I think Lucas assumed that massive battles with tons of Jedi knights and lightsabers everywhere was something Star Wars fans were desperate to see. And maybe he was right. I guess the problem is more that there were no stakes involved. Take the arena battle in Attack of the Clones: it should've been this massive battle that was building since the first film, but the conflict was so unclear and the enemy fighters were so useless that it was hard to care about anything going on. It looks like a computer game.

If you had the same exact battle but with the Jedi army fighting an actual threat and the conflict was clear, it would've been much better. Maybe some version of the Sith Troopers from KOTOR. Did those battle droids even kill a single Jedi?
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I think the unsureness of which side was which and what they were fighting for is interesting. It's how the films explain the downfall of the Jedi order - proud and arrogant peacekeeper-monks who take to arms, become warriors they were never supposed to be, so sure of what they do is right that they don't see things clearly until it's too late.

Instead of "fuck yeah we're winning", there's a general uneasiness with the viewers when they see the "stormtroopers" fighting with the Jedi. The conflict isn't clear and that's the whole thing that's building. It's an action/drama/romance of people caught up in things they don't understand. Maybe not a great one, but the story and ideas are there and are quite clear.
 
Maturin said:
Maybe not a great one, but the story and ideas are there and are quite clear.
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I think this "maybe not a great one" sums up why for many people the prequels fail. The story concept was interesting. The execution was flawed.
 
And yet, many of the criticisms aimed at the prequels suggest a quick fix in changing the story to something more easily graspable, more alike the OT.

I'd be much more... Accepting of the general attitude towards these films if I got the sense that it was actually well thought out criticisms. Maybe 90% of it just seems like whiny kids who wanted hamburger but got a steak instead.

I agree the execution was flawed, but so was the execution of the OT - the fundamental story problems were much bigger in Empire than in any of the prequels - just look at that huge timeline plothole that somehow gets overlooked all the time.
 
Maturin said:
I'd be much more... Accepting of the general attitude towards these films if I got the sense that it was actually well thought out criticisms. Maybe 90% of it just seems like whiny kids who wanted hamburger but got a steak instead.
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Well honestly a lot of the people who defend the prequels don't come off much better. They seem to have this attitude that nobody started criticizing the prequels until Red Letter Media made their videos.

I really don't think the prequels are all that bad, if you want to like them then that's fine. They are watchable. But I really don't understand why it's such a stretch for it to be true that a lot of people genuinely just don't like them.
 
I really don't understand why it's such a stretch for it to be true that a lot of people genuinely just like them.
 
SW OT : SW Prequels :: LotR : Hobbit

Both directors went back to their well, had a great core story, but couldn't resist adding more characters and too much CGI.
 
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