Wouldn't we all be better

Black Ace

Black Ace

Trooper
Okay, I've started reading Brave New World by Huxley and I'm almost half-way through... I've been going through a pretty nasty period this holiday season (the girl I liked for 2 years telling me she was afraid I was going to rape her and all... [!--emo&-_---][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sleep.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sleep.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:angry:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/mad.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'mad.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:blush:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blush.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blush.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ) but I've been thinking if such a state, like the one described in BNW wouldn't be better for humanity.

I know the book was written as a satyre, but it still brings a few valid points. Everyone seems happy in that world, even though the segregation is decded at birth and they're conditioned for almost everything they do.

You're going to tell me they're not really happy, and not entirely free. It doesen't matter cause neither are we. Not all of us are happy (not all the time, anyways) and we sure ain't free. So what if their happiness is just an illusion? Is our happiness any better? IS it "real", touchable?

Ok, so Bernard Marx isn't happy. But he just seems to be propelled from our era, knowing only our world, and that's why he's so alienated and is considered "weird".

The liberalization of sex and drugs (soma) would be welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, soma isn't addictive and if it isn't considered immoral, why avoid it, right?

The only bad thing in this world seems to be the fact that strong feelings are avoided, but since recently I can understand why this has happened. Also the fact that you can't have children may seem weird and nasty...
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Dec 29 2005, 08:21 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Dec 29 2005, 08:21 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The liberalization of sex and drugs (soma) would be welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, soma isn't addictive and if it isn't considered immoral, why avoid it, right?
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I have read the book and on this point I would like to say that I think Soma is used as a metaphor. It is a mask to escape on a "holiday" when things aren't going well. It is just like society in general. When there is bad stuff happening, we tend to hide it and say everything is OK, when it really isn't.

I can see what you're trying to say with the "everybody would be happy" philosophy argument, but I would tend to disagree. I am sure plenty of people in a regime like this are unhappy, only Bernard Marx had the balls to stand up for himself. Nobody wanted to join him in a social revolution because they were so scared of the regime.

I suppose in 1984 the regime kept people in their place by fear tactics, BNW seems to be more about making people feel valued or wanted. Not all people are equal and in reality not all people are wanted, but we still must deal with them. We cannot kill them off at birth if they are disabled for example, that is what the book is trying to tell us.

I think I might get some flames from this steam headed post but I am a steam headed debater. I don't mean to offend people, I'm just saying that totalitarianism is wrong and regimes that control people's lives (or deaths) is immoral and nobody in such a regime should feel it is morally right.
 
Being "happy" differs with every person. I have a few friends who are very financially limited, but yet they've learned to appreciate what they have, and always have a smile on them and are a joy to be around with. Then there are others who forget to appreciate the simplicity of life and are always on a bad mood. In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with today's society as that we no longer value the simplicity of life. A lot of people just care about trying to dress, act, and live like pop superstars.

Black Ace, if you're going through hard times, just remember that your only 15 years old and you have your whole life ahead of you. Girls come and go.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Mario88+ from his user profile--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Mario88 @ from his user profile)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--](I'm a populist; liberal on economic issues and conservative on social issues)
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So you're against homosexuals and you're in favor of big government programs to cure them of their "illness" (or at least to teach them more masculine mannerisms)?

Dude! Isn't that the worst possible combination?

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This thread deserves some time to make a proper answer, which I don't have. But I'd like to say something about the "strong feelings" Black Ace mentioned (and seem to be afraid of them. Or at least somewhat "out of place" due them)

Since the end of 2004 my whole life changed. I had also a delusion in love which after in 2005 became an illusion again, only to die AGAIN some days after. I can assure you that I went through dark times. Lets put it this way: I understood why some people kill themselves...

"But that's the easy way, that's the selfish way, the hardest part is to get on with your life"

Strong feelings once turned wrong can be quite dangerous, but also quite good. I believe that they are part of the life of any normal person, and I can assure you that almost anyone here in the forum once had "dark times" in their lives. Whenever something goes wrong, specially in love affairs, the person who suffers, in almost all cases, will rise in a complete different way. What is funny for me is when someone "gives all his/her love to another person" and then get kicked off (like myself). Times like this, the most obvious thing to think is "I'll never give myself like that away again. Never !" or "I'll never be a prisoner of my feelings again" or something like that

"Live your life with a passion, everything you do, do well. You only get of life what you put in, so they say"

You know, I had those feelings, but the lines of The Aparittion were stuck in my mind also. What I concluded ? Well, I was naive, so I must not be the next time, but I will not deny love to the other person. Like Mario88 said, girls come and go. This reminds me another lyric, this time from Dream Theater's Metropolis part 1

"As a child I thought I could live without pain, without sorrow"

Wouldn't be better if we live in a world without strong feelings ? No. Because the real point is not forgeting or denying those fellings, the key is to understand them, so you will understand yourself better, and with that you can turn sorrow in wisdom. Do not fear your fellings, don't be afraid to feel, learn with them.

Yes I know, its so fucking easy for me to say that, since I'm not you. But believe me, I've been in my particular hell once and I know what is like. If you don't walk somewhere, you will never make it out alive. So, go on my friend.

Now you can leave the room of therapy, my secretary will inform you of the charges at the exit. Do not forget to take your medicines. [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:p--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Since I have finished Black Ace's therapy, you can return to the original idea of the thread.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Dec 29 2005, 10:21 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Dec 29 2005, 10:21 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]
The only bad thing in this world seems to be the fact that strong feelings are avoided, but since recently I can understand why this has happened.
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I've pretty much recovered from all that has happened. Now I'm ashamed I couldn't have seen what a two-faced person she was, and just don't want to ever have anything to do with her.I'm not "marked for life",or anything, I just understood that some people, however nice you treat them, in the end will just spit on you.

What I meant to say that strong feelings can at some times make you ignore the voice of reason and will make you do/say stupid things that you can regret afterwards, and in a perfectionist society such as that, making people keep at bay strong feelings would've seemed a natural thing to do.

I understand that I'm living my best years and I'm not gonna let something like this waste them, and I'm sorry Mig that you've been hurt like that. No one deserves it, not even [span style=\'font-family:Impact\']she[/span] [!--emo&-_---][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sleep.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'sleep.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Let's get back on topic shall we:Conditioning people to buy new clothes for example, may seem like just a way to make people buy new stuff, but people will look better, them being conditioned to love sports may make them buy new equipment, but also keeps them fit,and so on. That world doesen't seem so appauling to me, even though I like freedom and I realize that we're not exactly free there, and we're not exactly individuals, but goddamnit, as long as 90% of the world is happy, I guess it's worth it [!--emo&:unsure:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/unsure.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'unsure.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
BA, I don't know if you are a religious person but the only argument I can come up with are basically Christian ones. Your theory would work if we were to give up our morals and settle for a manmade society, but since man is imperfect, there are always going to be problems.

"Dying swans twisted wings, beauty not needed here"

As the song says, in a BNW, we have to sacrifice natural beauty and God's creation for what man wants. We would be destroying the sanctity of human life for the price of hapiness for all. Is this the correct thing to do? God has created us all individually and yet we want to condition everybody to be what society wants us to be.

If you do not care for religion this argument would not make much snese but this is the way our world is going. Man thinks he can handle all the worlds problems and by doing so, creates more problems.
 
I think today's society looks a bit like it at least. We're analysing things, I can even say we're shredding things, further than the point it really is usefull. Living in a world where there's nothing left to explore is equal to hell in my opinion.

I might not have read Brave New World (Only a bit of the first chapter), but I've read Anthem by Ayn Rand and I think living to live is the same as living to die. Living in a world that's not real gives emptiness.

People want things, no music, games or art, they want to explore and learn. Be proud and know they're different, they want to say 'I am' not 'we are'. A human wants to live to it's potential and not being held or getting dragged.

I think people should read Anthem too and see what collectivism really means.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Dec 29 2005, 10:21 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Dec 29 2005, 10:21 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I know the book was written as a satyre, but it still brings a few valid points. Everyone seems happy in that world, even though the segregation is decded at birth and they're conditioned for almost everything they do. [/quote]

Sure, BNW has its advantages. Everybody is safe from violence, crime and emotion. That is something we all crave for sometimes, I think.


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]You're going to tell me they're not really happy, and not entirely free. It doesen't matter cause neither are we. Not all of us are happy (not all the time, anyways) and we sure ain't free. So what if their happiness is just an illusion? Is our happiness any better? IS it "real", touchable?[/quote]

The people in the BNW society are happy, because they live the way they are used to from birth to death. I will comment on this later on in this post.


[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Ok, so Bernard Marx isn't happy. But he just seems to be propelled from our era, knowing only our world, and that's why he's so alienated and is considered "weird".[/quote]

Wrong. There are Bernard Marx's in every society, past and present. Society has always had its neurotics, and it is very likely that it always will have.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The liberalization of sex and drugs (soma) would be welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, soma isn't addictive and if it isn't considered immoral, why avoid it, right?[/quote]

The further you proceed in the book, the more you will learn that soma is incredibly addictive. In fact, the people in this society could not survive without it.

[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The only bad thing in this world seems to be the fact that strong feelings are avoided, but since recently I can understand why this has happened. Also the fact that you can't have children may seem weird and nasty...
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Mate, you have been in deep emotional trouble recently. Many of us have. I have too. Sometimes I curse my emotions and wish I was a Vulcan or worse. But fact is, emotions are what make us human. Look at the BNW people. They are bare of all emotions and live to serve, like cattle or robots. The society and the state have become a pervertion of itself. In contrary to what Kennedy said, your country and your government are there to help and serve you, not the other way around. A state is a fictional thing constructed by people to help with and ease their everyday lives, to organize the way they live. It has been bitterly perverted from these roots, and the recent turn to democracy is an attempt -a failed one- to return to the original idea of a state.
The people in BNW have been dehumanized. They serve a government which in return promises peace and stability, but in reality nourishes from its slaves. It all works the way it is, but it is simply wrong. The people have no perspective for their intellect and future- it must all stay the same. In that sense, where is the purpose of their existence? The people here are like cells of a huge body -the society or government- but this huge body is constructed and has no reason or right to exist.
 
Today I officially broke up with my girlfriend, I say officially because we haven't been exactly a couple for close to a month now... even with that it still hurt a lot. Mainly because there was nothing wrong with us except our apparent incompatability. We made each other laugh, we enoyed each other's company, we never lied to each other or kept ANY secrects from each other and we were even the same religion. However our cultural differences and personalities kept us from having a good, stable ROMANTIC relationship. I feel like a real idiot letting her go, because she is a great girl, but I know in the long run we would be unhappy.

Unlike with my first girlfriend, with whom I want nothing to do with, I hope that with this ex one day I can remain friends with her. It is also a very different pain from the first, I wasn't cheated, wronged or disrespected, we simply weren't meant to be, which in a way is worse, at least for me. It makes me feel inadequate and useless. Wouldn't be the first time but I guess it is male pride that is really hurting here.

However to tie it in to the thread... I wouldn't give up the time I did spend with her and the hell i'm going through this very moment for anything. It is our emotions that make us human and what make life worth living, the highs and the lows. I don't know how long it will take me to get over this, but I know I will be stronger. The archetype of Acent and Return: It is only when we hit bottom that we know what we must do to really become a better person. At least according to Carl Jung. Not to mention I think we already live in a BNW-type society with a little 1984 on the side. I'll take it over living in a village any day, but it does need improving.
 
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