Why I own the Black Album

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
As we all know Metallica "sold out" ages ago catering to radio stations and fans with shorter attention spans and forgeting their awesomeness of days before, however, when exactly did this happen? Was it the black album? Before or after? It was after the black album. The Black Album was still heavy, their hair was still long and they still wore black. The Black album was just a very good album that caught the eye of the mainstream. A lot of bands go through this as well. Green Day's Dookie, No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom, Pearl Jam's Ten AC/DC's Back in Black etc. All these are very good albums that give the respective artists momentary notoriety, 15 minutes of fame. What they do afterwards is up to them. most choose the path of making the big bucks because I bet it is a very nice feeling, almost vindicating to finally get some attention. Tragic Kingdom was No Doubt's THIRD cd after having two commercial flops. Once they hit it big the SOLD OUT, they found their "formula" for selling and stuck to it. So did Green Day after Dookie, releasing an album in the same vein with a bonus, a BALLAD that would be played in EVERY SINGLE radio station and make them gain wider appeal. Personally I think that says a lot about them as musicians since it is a good song, but its purpose was to widen the fan base. Pearl Jam is the only band that I know of that has done the complete reverse of this trend. After a HUGE commercial success with Ten they kept doing their own thing, they didn't care for MTV (in fact they refused to make music videos), they boycotted Ticket Master, and became an underground band with a cult following... and that is exactly what they wanted. That is Metallica's Black album, the album that let's the world know "hey here we are", but it wasn't until AFTER that album when the changes occured. Short hair, pimp suits, shorter, catchier songs with mindless lyrics (Give me fuel? the fuck?"). However I've gotten in plenty of debates over this. The "real" metallica is from kill them all to the Black album, the rest is crap. Others say Load and Reload aren't so bad. Then there is this one friend of mine who actually got rid of ALL his metallica cds after they sold out. His arguement? They sold out betraying their loyal fan base making them hypocrites. If you even buy their back catalog you are still feeding the hypocrites, still funding them which makes you a hypocrite as well. I countered with, if you buy their back catalog maybe they'll notice that its selling more than their stuff from Load on and say "hey, maybe we should go back to our old sound, people like it". Therefore that is why I own the black album, because it is a Good album, their last stroke of genius before genuinly selling out. If I am a hypocrite for feeding the current monster shoot me, i don't care, The music is what matters. If the music is good, i'll buy it, if it sucks i'll stay away from it (and that is why i still buy Pearl Jam cds as well).
 
I don't think Metallica sold out with the black album either. I would say they softened up their sound a bit with it, but at least it was a good album, though not as good as or very much like their previous four. If you ask me, I think selling out is an absolutley terrible thing. There's no way Metallica can possibly think St. Anger is a great album or that it could possibly compare to the great Master of Puppets. No matter how much money you could make by selling out, it's always a bad idea in my eyes.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Sep 30 2004, 02:40 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Sep 30 2004, 02:40 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]As we all know Metallica "sold out" ages ago...
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I disagree with that statement. I know most people here will think I'm crazy, but allow me to play devil's advocate and explain myself.

Why did Metallica start writing shorter, simpler songs after Justice? As they said in numerous interviews at the time of the Black Album's release, they had grown tired of the long, progressive songs. They had created 3 albums full of that material and felt they had gone as far in that musical direction as they could. To continue in that vein would have risked self-parody.

As people go through life, their musicals tastes often change. Are Metallica to be blamed for changing, for growing up? I think it would be much worse if they hadn't evolved. Look at a band like AC/DC who have stopped evolving musically - every AC/DC album since Flick Of The Switch sounds the same. I for one am glad Metallica did not choose that path.

And given that Metallica's tastes and style changed by natural evolution as they made the Black Album, isn't it reasonable to expect such a change might continue over several years? Even the god-awfulness of St. Anger can be attributed to changes in their personal musical tastes.

So for a time in the mid-90s, their own tastes veered into coincidence with a style of alternative rock that happened to be popular at the time. This could have even been the result of being influenced by popular artists of that time. Note that I said influenced - there is a significant difference between showing one's influences and outright copying other bands. Metallica did the former, not the latter.

Looking only at the music, I think Load was a great album - not as great as the Black Album, but certainly a worthy successor. However, Reload was much worse, S&M was a waste of time and St. Anger is one of the worst records I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. Yet there are people who love these records. This is just more evidence of people's tastes changing as they mature - not just Metallica, but fans like me also. For example, maybe part of the reason I like Load is because I enjoy radio-friendly pop songs in addition to metal.

What exactly is the definition of "selling out"? I say it is taking an attitude of "We're going to betray our own personal style of music and do whatever is needed to make money". The attitude and motivation is the key here - the actual actions don't matter. If Metallica released an album tomorrow which was instantly hailed as their greatest ever, but they did it for love of money rather than music, that's selling out. You can't judge selling out by the music. You have to read interviews with the band to find out what they're thinking. And from everything I've read, Metallica never sold out.

Finally, there's the whole image issue. "Short hair and pimp suits" as Onhell put it. I'll admit it surprised me, but to be honest I couldn't care less. I don't care if they look and dress like Wall Street stockbrokers or Lovecraftian demons. I only care about the music. As a musician myself, I do not believe in the slightest that image has any connection to musical style. Perhaps they "sold out" their image to be more MTV-friendly, but this has nothing to do with what matters: the music. Think about it this way: did Bruce Dickinson sell out when he cut his hair to get a job as a pilot? Yes, I know Bruce got the flying job because he loves flying, and not for money. My point is that a drastic change in image can be (and usually is) completely unrelated to musical style, and I believe this is the case with Metallica.

We all love to root for the underdog. When a band makes a change which happens to result in commercial success, the cries of "Sellout!" ring across the land. Why do people get so upset? You never hear aboust selling out when a change results in lack of success. I think people are just upset that one of their favorite underdogs isn't a dog anymore. Suddenly everyone and their cousin is a fan just like you, and you feel less special because of it. When I stopped caring about whether other people thought my taste in music was sufficiently cool, I also stopped caring about whether or not any bands had sold out. I think crying "Sellout!" says a lot more about the accuser than the accused ... and most of what it says isn't complimentary at all.

So even though I think Metallica didn't sell out, I also don't care if I'm wrong and they did. I still like them, and I'll still buy any records they put out. Yes, even after St. Anger. Or I'll at least download them, just to fuck with Lars.
 
"Pearl Jam is the only band that I know..."

I know one more band - Iron Maiden. Dont you think Maiden SOLD OUT too? Metallica is stronger than IM just only in the States, nowhere else.

I dont think (as Sinister) they grow. they just follow the commercial benefit and pop-trend. theres no more original fenomenon called Metallica. So called band died right after they started to think about Black Album.

In early years they (especially Lars) lick Maidens boots but now theyre godz, poor self-important and arrogant short-arses and this is so sad to me
 
IM seem to me, not that they sold out as muscians, but they're trying to get more dough throguh allt his merch, whcih, frankly speaking, makes me SICK to teh stommach. I don't give afuck abotu the SIT head-banger or the action-figures, tehy're just MORE MONEY fro YOUR pockets. I own the Black Album for the simple reason that iI got an album that i already had, and i went to the store to get another one. And this was the only one that I fancied. I listened it a few times, nowhere near as how much i listen to my Maiden albums. And i don't find it commercial at all.
I hope yo all won't flame me to oblivion before i take my leave... [!--emo&:apu:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/apu.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'apu.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Addaba, I said Pearl Jam DIDN'T sell out, and I don't think maiden has sold out at all. They have never changed their musical direction or image and purposefully called their backcatalog crap. Metallica (in the interviews SMX mentions) says their material was getting "too complecated too cerebral and the fans weren't enjoying it anymore"-Kirk Hammet. The Fuck? not enjoying it? yeah that is why their concerts sold out every ticket and their albums went platinum with no radio play or music video, because fans were getting tired of them, that to me is flat out stupidity.
Now, SMX, you read my post but you didn't READ my post, if you had you would have seen i arrived at the same conclusion you did, what matters is the music. And that is why I DON'T own Load, Reload and the rest because it isn't just the image, that isn't Metallica Metal to me anymore, they did change... for the worst. What I will admit is that After listening to St. Anger Load and Reload are Masterpieces hahaha. I don't care how long or short someone's person's hair is, but it does identify you into a certain circle as you mentioned. And it does mean a lot to a fan when after being the outsiders, away from society all of a sudden their precious band is part of the in-crowd. It sucks. Conclusion, I agree and disagree but then again that is what makes good conversation!
As for their merchandise... I don't mind that, I don't buy it, just cause i like them doesn't mean i'll buy that crap, but it is nice memorabilia for the diehard fan.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Oct 1 2004, 01:46 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Oct 1 2004, 01:46 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Now, SMX, you read my post but you didn't READ my post, if you had you would have seen i arrived at the same conclusion you did...
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Perhaps I should have been clearer. My post was not intended as a direct response to your post, but rather a generalized argument against the statement "Metallica has sold out." True, my post was inspired by your post, and I tried to cover the same ground in my own way, but I was not trying to "prove you wrong" or anything like that. It was a devil's advocate post, simply providing an alternative viewpoint.
 
oh, my bad, i was the one to misread LOL. Good job though, because that is basically the opposing viewpoint.
 
First of all, thanks to SMX for such an intelligent post. There's lots to think about here...let me just make a few unrelated points.


[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Oct 1 2004, 12:49 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Oct 1 2004, 12:49 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why did Metallica start writing shorter, simpler songs after Justice? As they said in numerous interviews at the time of the Black Album's release, they had grown tired of the long, progressive songs. They had created 3 albums full of that material and felt they had gone as far in that musical direction as they could. To continue in that vein would have risked self-parody.
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It's understandable that they might have "grown tired" of the longer songs and complex structures. But it does seem to me a bit of a cop-out for them to say that they "couldn't go any further in that direction." Harris has been writting long, complex, progressive songs since 1980 and they don't seem repetitive or derivative. Maybe Harris' epics aren't groundbreaking as they were back in the day, but they are still fresh and more than worth listening to. In any case, if Metallical abandoned their early style in order to break new ground in a different direction, it seems to me they failed entirely.


[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Oct 1 2004, 12:49 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Oct 1 2004, 12:49 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]What exactly is the definition of "selling out"? I say it is taking an attitude of "We're going to betray our own personal style of music and do whatever is needed to make money". The attitude and motivation is the key here - the actual actions don't matter. If Metallica released an album tomorrow which was instantly hailed as their greatest ever, but they did it for love of money rather than music, that's selling out. You can't judge selling out by the music.  You have to read interviews with the band to find out what they're thinking. And from everything I've read, Metallica never sold out.
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SMX is completely correct here. "Selling out" is a question of motive not quality. But I don't agree that there is no good reason to think that Metallica (James and Lars in particular) are profit-driven rockers. Anyone remember Napster?
 
oops... that was me above. I posted from a different computer and forgot to log on... [!--emo&:blush:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/blush.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'blush.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I bought Black simply for the music. It's a good album, whether its thrash or not. I dont think metallica made it to appeal to a greater audience, they were just experimenting with their sound.
And if they were selling out, and doing everything for money, how come they changed their sound again with St. Anger (which IMO is a good album as well)?
 
I own the black album because it's good music, nothing more or less. But I think the idea of selling out came from when 'Nothing Else Matters' became a great hit, people wanted more and wondered when the next album came. Then there was the news of James and stuff and after he came back I don't think he felt much for sex, drugs and Rock 'n Roll so they became more of a ''proper member of society''.

I also don't think they make senseless music after the rehab. If you compare Frantic with Hit the Lights. And even if you say Hit the Lights isn't the best of the old Metallica, it still comes with the label of "old Metallica". You can´t say old is good, new is crap because that argument is just drawing a line between styles and then go stand at one side. I think the new Metallica is not really worse than the old one, it´s just different and it seems some people can´t take that as a decent argument.
 
They did sell out on the black album. and it's got nothing to do with the length of the songs or whether you think it is still "heavy" or not. The bottom line is they turned their backs on thrash. just like megedeth and anthrax. Whether you want to call it selling out or just being gayass pussies is up to you.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Animal_Supreme+Jan 16 2006, 08:14 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Animal_Supreme @ Jan 16 2006, 08:14 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]They did sell out on the black album.  and it's got nothing to do with the length of the songs or whether you think it is still "heavy" or not.  The bottom line is they turned their backs on thrash.  just like megedeth and anthrax.    Whether you want to call it selling out or just being gayass pussies is up to you.
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Umm...if you look at their older stuff, a lot of it wasn't thrash either. Metallica went down the pure 'Heavy' route more or less after Kill 'em All, sure, they kept a lot of thrash elements, but they added in a lot of Heavy Metal elements. I think we should stop using the term sold out, it's the band's decision what they want to do. They just chose to make money. It doesn't make their old music bad, or even their new music. I like Load and ReLoad as good music, and mostly as good metal, but not good Metallica. Many lesser bands (by no means CRAP bands) would kill to have their best album as good as Load and ReLoad. Now, St. Anger....there are some people who like it. As much as I pity them, they're entitled to their opinion. Metallica did not sell out, they just tried to appeal to a different audience. Hopefully the enormous amount of negative feedback they got from St. Anger's release will convince them to return to their roots. And maybe Cliff Burton will return from the dead, Kill Bob Rock and knock some sense into Lars Ulrich [!--emo&:rolleyes:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/rolleyes.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'rolleyes.gif\' /][!--endemo--] . Actually, the only member of Metallica I still respect is Kirk Hammet. He's still a great player and is the one voice of reason there. James is too influenced by Lars and Bob.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Animal_Supreme+Jan 16 2006, 08:14 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Animal_Supreme @ Jan 16 2006, 08:14 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]They did sell out on the black album.  and it's got nothing to do with the length of the songs or whether you think it is still "heavy" or not.  The bottom line is they turned their backs on thrash.  just like megedeth and anthrax.    Whether you want to call it selling out or just being gayass pussies is up to you.
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It hurts to see when someone completely misses the point doesn't it?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-SinisterMinisterX+Sep 30 2004, 05:49 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SinisterMinisterX @ Sep 30 2004, 05:49 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why did Metallica start writing shorter, simpler songs after Justice? As they said in numerous interviews at the time of the Black Album's release, they had grown tired of the long, progressive songs. They had created 3 albums full of that material and felt they had gone as far in that musical direction as they could. To continue in that vein would have risked self-parody.
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I totally agree. If you look at Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, and And Justice for All, you'll notice that they follow the same formula. All three of those albums open up with a very fast thrash song (that starts out slow for the first minute but then speeds up). On all three of those albums, the second track happens to be the title track for which the pace is slowed down. Then comes a mid-tempo song with a heavy riff (For Whom the Bell Tolls, The Thing that Should not Be, Eye of the Beholder). Then comes the song with the depressing lyrics that starts out with an acoustic introduction and then speeds up to a crushing finish (Fade to Black, Welcome Home, One). After that, theres a mix of fast and mid-tempo songs, and a near 10-minute long instrumental track is thrown near the end.


My thoughts:
I think metallica did the right thing in changing their sound a bit. Changing one's sound does not mean selling out. Using that ignorant knowledge, one can say that Maiden sold out in 82 when they got Bruce. Even the documentary in the Early Days DVD states that Maiden became more commercial with Bruce's arrival.

However, I do prefer the old Metallica to their newer stuff by a lot, but that doesn't mean their newer stuff isn't bad (actually, with the exception of the horrible St Anger). What angers me the most is when die-hard Megadeth fans claim that Metallica sold out and Megadeth didn't. Megadeth pretty much did the same thing. They peaked at Rust in Peace, and then became more commercial with Countdown to Extinction and Youthanasia.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Mario88+Jan 20 2006, 04:12 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Mario88 @ Jan 20 2006, 04:12 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]They peaked at Rust in Peace, and then became more commercial with Countdown to Extinction and Youthanasia.
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And then they became even more commercial with Cryptic Writings and Risk.
 
[!--quoteo(post=127382:date=Jan 20 2006, 06:45 PM:name=Black Dragon)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Dragon @ Jan 20 2006, 06:45 PM) [snapback]127382[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
And then they became even more commercial with Cryptic Writings and Risk.
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Exactly. They were no longer thrash by CtE, but were they flamed out of the wall because of it? No, because they were living in Metallica's shadow. They only really had true fans who recognised that the band needed to change direction. And it helped that CtE was a great album, too [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":p\" border=\"0\" alt=\"tongue.gif\" /]
 
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