What if Adrian had joined Def Leppard?
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Am I?
Again, I have simply pointed out the misconceptions/mistakes made by you and another individual in regards to record sales and chart runs.
I have done so politely and factually. I am not responsible if the arguments about specifics continues, but of course can keep referring to facts where requested (it was you who asked for an example chart run when I pointed out that Maiden albums did not peak on debut in the USA during the 80s)
The other argument made to support the claim that Vivian was a much bigger star than Adrian has been 'magazine cover's in the USA.
I have accepted that this may be the case, I don't know!
However, I would argue that magazine covers does not carry as much weight as sheer record/ticket sales - though that is my subjective view.
BUT..... Vivian did NOT play on 'Here I Go Again'.
He played on a recorded 1988 version of 'Give Me All Your Love' - that was his only recording with Whitesnake. That single reached number 46 in the USA and number 18 in the UK - it was Vivian's biggest hit single during the 1980s
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You forgot to mention: from 1983 to 1987, Dio with Vivian Campbell had six top 40 hits on that chart. Iron Maiden had three. There's that 2:1 ratio again.
Maiden got a 4th in 1988 with CIPWM - at #47, only after the chart had expanded to more than 40 positions.
Your original version was much more polite...
You're right. It was Adrian Vandenberg who did the guest spot on Here I Go Again. My bad. I would still point out that Vivian was in the video - although I can't blame you for not noticing, since most people only notice Tawny Kitaen. Also, Vivian is the one who toured on it across America.
This, I assume is the US Mainstream rock chart - and not the Billboard Top 100.
I am sure you can research some specific points to prove a point. And maybe in this specific window of time Dio did have more hits on this format. By all means raise such points, but they seem rather specific - why not mention that two of Maiden's biggest hits on this chart were just the year before in 1982, or that 'Wrathchild' charted in 1981?
In either event, throughout this time, Maiden charted much higher and longer with their albums.
But it seems as if you simply do not want to have a discussion based on fair and representative facts? I mean, the facts you boast are very narrow to the discussion.
Yes. It's the same chart you first mentioned yourself, as shown in the post I quoted. You chose it.
Because that's not true. The chart in question is the rightmost listed here.
I see you are now referring to Wikipedia - fair enough, it's normally ok and accurate.
In this case - it is wrong.
It appears whoever has filled out the 'US Mainstream' chart positions for Iron Maiden singles has just chosen to make it up for the most part.
Yes, the Piece Of Mind singles are correct - but other stuff is widely made up.
E.G - Wildest Dreams never charted at number 11 on this chart, though Wicker Man did chart at 19.
The Maiden chart positions for the album seem fine at first glance, and you can now surely use them as a cross-check against the Dio albums to see Dio's relative lack of success compared to Maiden both in America and even more so outside of the USA.
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If you say my source is wrong, do you have an alternative to show? Do you have any evidence for your statement?
I don't understand why the world's biggest music market should be left out of the discussion.
Ummm..... to be quite clear, again:
Maiden's albums charted longer and higher in the 80s than Dio's albums in America. But even more so outside of America.
As per a previous post, Dio's highest charting album in America did not crack the Top 20 (Last In Line made number 24 in 1984)
In comparison, in the 80s Maiden had a string of albums that enjoyed relatively lengthy chart runs inside the US Top 20.
It is just that the gap of success between the two bands is even greater outside of the USA.
To sum up;
1. Dio were not huge in America, relative to Maiden (as Dio had far less chart and sales success)
2. Like Maiden, Dio did not have any mainstream hits (on the Billboard Top 100)
3. Like Maiden, Dio had a few Mainstream Rock hits (but certainly not much greater success)
3. Vivian Campbell did not play on 'Here I Go Again' or any Whitesnake album.
And in light of the above, I can not see how your claim that Vivian was 'way more successful and popular' than Adrian Smith in the 80s could be true (though I accept you have more magazines with Vivian on the front cover than Adrian, and this may suggest his acclaim as a guitarist for some niche publications)
Why, in light of all the information provided, is it so difficult for you to accept that I can not agree that Vivian was more successful and popular than Adrian in the 80s?
I get that you are a massive fan of Vivaian Campbell. But I am not knocking Vivian Campbell or Dio - just pointing out some straight facts.
Anyhow, it seems as if further discussion on this issue will go nowhere - and defeats the original purpose of my opening post.
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What's your obsession with album charts? That was never the original point. The original point was that Vivian Campbell was more famous than Adrian Smith in the 80s, and thus not a logical choice for a guitarist who would not outshine Phil Collen. Album sales are only part of that fame. Nor are they even the best measure of fame or reputation, unless you're willing to concede that any artist who outsells Maiden is more famous and respected, which sounds clearly ridiculous to me.
Why do I know chart positions and so forth off by heart.... Well I used to work in the industry and was blessed/cursed with a photographic memory which I wasted reading the UK's Music Week and US Billboard magzines with chart rundowns etc.... Often paying attention to Maiden (though never have worked with/for them).
And I can assure you that the wikipedia page is wrong for the Maiden charts positions on the US Mainstream Chart as Maiden have never had a Mainstream Rock hit since the Wicker Man (contrary to the claims on Wikipedia)
But if you want proof, try this direct source: http://www.billboard.com/artist/303893/iron-maiden/chart?sort=date&f=376
I can only guess an over enthusiastic Maiden fan has made up some figures for 'Wildest Dreams', 'Different World' etc...
The Billboard site does not go all the way back and does not have archives. But I can tell you that Maiden charted on the Mainstream Rock charts first with 'Wrathchild', then with 'Run To The Hills', 'The Number Of The Beast' , 'Hallowed...', 'Flight of The Icarus', 'The Trooper' and 'Two Minutes to Midnight'. They then without a hit on this chart for 16 years before 'Wicker Man' gave them their final hit.
I have no obsession with the album chart...other than correcting any suggestion that Dio had more success than Maiden - I am trusting that you have now accepted this.
And I never mentioned anything about Vivian outshining Phil Collen, did I? I said I suspected that Def Leppard would not have chosen Adrian as a replacement for Steve Clarke because he would not have accepted being a subordinate to Phil. Adrian, after all, was a guitarist in a band that had produced a string of major hit albums (platinum and Top 20 in the USA, number 1s in the UK, Top Ten hits across Europe).
In contrast, at the time that Vivian joined Def Leppard, he was in a band called Shadow King (zero success) and had prior to that been on one tour with Whitesnake and recorded just one song with them (not, as you claimed 'Here I Go Again', but the rather less famous 'Give Me All Your Love 1988 version'.)
And, yes, before that he was with Dio - where he had some success in the USA with 3 albums (but certainly not more than what Maiden enjoyed and certainly much more limited success outside of the USA than what Maiden achieved).
You have made so many claims as to why Vivian was, in your words, 'way more popular and successful than Adrian' in the 1980s. But your supporting claims are not factually correct and all evidence in terms of radio hits and album sales suggest otherwise. Though, I note your claim that Vivian featured on more magazine covers.
In light of this, I have put forward that Adrain was too successful to be adopted into Def Leppard as he would never have accepted being a subordinate to Phil Collen. In contrast, Vivian, with his 'relative' lack of success, was a better choice for Leppard as he has never challenged Phil Collen's place in the spotlight. This is not to say that Vivian is the lesser guitarist as I think he is incredible. But, he is terribly under utlilisied in Def Leppard with the bulk of the solos in concerts going to Phil with Vivian very much in the background. And Vivian has complained as much, but alas, stays with the band.
I appreciate, you have taken all of the above to be some insult to Vivian and Dio - and clearly you are not happy with this. But it was you who has chosen to make an issue out of all of this, when really, my opening post was more more about Adrian than Vivian.
And now I am done with this discussion as it appears to have lost track.
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You're an idiot. Goodbye.
Seriously, this is how you are concluding your arguments?
Note, when you made your various claims that were proved to be totally wrong (such as Vivian playing on 'Here I Go Again'), I simply corrected you without resorting to such immature comments. I would have thought a 'staff member' would have displayed better behaviour than what you have demonstrated.
You're an idiot. Goodbye.
What...what the hell did I just walk into?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
It's not that others are not trying to win the discussion.
All this is recognizable to me. People are having trouble with (winning) a discussion and in the end it's getting more personal.
Nibblet, you made valid (so did others, but yours were not less) points, and stayed polite in these uneasy circumstances.
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