We must NEVER FORGET!

Wasted CLV said:
I hope this doesn't come out and offend anyone, but I sometimes think that the US is like a teenager, who got punched in the mouth for the first time, standing in a room of old boxers.  We can't believe "that happened to us!"  So, we go around showing our wound to everyone to get a reaction. 

The other thing is, there is a large amount of the population that just has no knowledge of what the rest of the world is going through.  Seriously, we have book burners on the news, while mass graves are being filled.  Yes, the information is out there, but it isn't always readily and easily accessible.  You don't hear it on the radio driving to work, it doesn't pop up in the front page of Yahoo, so it must not be happening.  No, that isn't an excuse, and it is sad.  But, that doesn't change reality here, either. 

I remember having a discussion here once before, about the Russian lives lost in WWII, and, honestly, I had no idea of the death toll until I took a 100 level World History class --during my senior year of college, when I was 33!  I had taken other history classes in college and high school, but hadn't ever gotten the concept of what Russia had to go through, and how pivotal they were in the end of the war. 

However, one thing that has come of this, for us here, is the fact that people have a strong belief in the military again.  Unlike the Vietnam war, where military personnel were scorned, people are now feeling pride in what our men and women are trying to do (whether the politicians are doing the right thing or not).

Well said. Without wanting to pay any disrespect for the victims of 9/11, what this is mostly about is hurt pride. I understand it was a great shock to the US, and that shock still sits deep - but living in a country that still has total devastation in living memory, it becomes less understandable with every year.

In my defence, the links I provided were consciously chosen for post-WW2 events, and I don't claim the list to be exhaustive.
 
And certainly nobody is saying that you picked an exhaustive set of links, my friend.

And Zare? Boots and trucks, as you well know. 14 million pairs of American-made felt-lined winter boots and 750,000 Ford & GMC 4x4s. That's how the USA contributed to victory in Europe the most. In the Pacific, obviously the Soviet invasion destroyed what was left of the Japanese army in Asia; but due to US naval superiority that army was all but neutralized anyway. Perhaps a discussion for another thread?
 
Wasted CLV said:
I hope this doesn't come out and offend anyone, but I sometimes think that the US is like a teenager, who got punched in the mouth for the first time, standing in a room of old boxers.  We can't believe "that happened to us!"  So, we go around showing our wound to everyone to get a reaction. 

Let me just say not all Americans are that way about 9/11. Unfortunately, a large number of us are, but please don't blanket us all with the way those flag waving redneck idiots act.
 
Wasted, being an American himself, was likely talking about his interpretation of what he sees; I know many are ready to carry on, but the media seems to work in the method previously described.
 
@Zare: I suggest you (just as I suggested LC a while back) to read

Norman Davies - Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory

Very insightful and well written. Here a review found on the net to give you an idea what is so special about it:

It may startle many to learn that no definitive history yet exists of World War II. Yet such is the argument by historian John Keegan in The Battle for History (1996), reiterated here with evidentiary force by historian Davies. A specialist on the European war's German-Soviet component (Rising '44: The Battle for Warsaw, 2004), Davies perceives several faults in both professional presentations and popular understandings of the war. Americans and Britons tend to overrate their countries' contribution to victory, remembering Dunkirk and D-Day and forgetting that most combat occurred in the east. More seriously, in Davies' estimation, Western historians and their audience do not sufficiently understand the war aims and murderous record of the Soviet Communist regime. It was as expansionist and unmercifully inhumane as the Nazi tyranny over which it was the principal victor: most know of Auschwitz or the (German) invasion of Poland; far fewer are aware of Vorkuta or the (Soviet) invasion of Poland. A trenchant critique, Davies' book ought to provoke readers and writers of WWII history.
 
Anyway, the main point of this thread was in memory of 9/11 which should be obvious because of when I started it and the music video I posted. I'm not quite sure why others are talking about other wars and such.
 
Travis_AKA_fonzbear2000 said:
I'm not quite sure why others are talking about other wars and such.

Because 6,557,975,000 people or 95.48% of the world's population is not from the United States. Why must we pay special remembrance to 9/11, but not to Srebrenica, Rwanda, the Killing Fields, Darfur or other disastrous events?
 
I believe we began discussing the merits of remembering 9/11, and then the thread did as threads do; it became intellectual and carried on forward into discussion of related topics. Nobody here means to diss 9/11, as it remains a pivotal world event - but we are simply carrying the discussion forward, and we are broadening horizons in doing so.

Remembering the tragedy of 9/11 and in doing so turning our attention to remembering other terrible events would seem, to me, appropriate.
 
Suicidehummer said:
Let me just say not all Americans are that way about 9/11. Unfortunately, a large number of us are, but please don't blanket us all with the way those flag waving redneck idiots act.

LC is correct.  I don't presume to believe that all Americans feel that way; I don't.  However, our nation does act that way, at least that's the view I have from here in the Midwest.  I know that doesn't mean the whole country acts that way.  However, as a nation (being driven by our media, politicians, et al), we act as if we have lost our mojo, and we are still trying to find it. 
 
Perun said:
Because 6,557,975,000 people or 95.48% of the world's population is not from the United States. Why must we pay special remembrance to 9/11, but not to Srebrenica, Rwanda, the Killing Fields, Darfur or other disastrous events?

I see your point. This forum is quite Western and since those events didn't occur in the West they tend to be left aside. But there's more.

Each of those events is a bit more complex than 9/11. 9/11 was a terroristic attack, it was quick. It was deadly in a short period of time. It had major consequences afterwards but 9/11 itself was focussed on a relatively small area, in the midst of an "invincible" metropolitan. Apart from the tragedy, it made people awake. It was close, it was confronting, it was national, and because it was in the USA, it was international, and Western.

The west failed to prevent things from getting worse in those other events. Maybe that's why "we" have difficulties to remember these other events. There's a certain cocktail of own commitment (and guilt) and responsibilities (and guilt) of the countries in question. My country has a nasty relation with the Srebrenica massacre, but Dutch soldiers and politicians still go back to that area. I for one don't feel the need yet to remember this event here on this forum, and I realize some other member's countries had a lacking responsibility as well. It's complicated to remember this together.

9/11 is more "easy" to remember since the West is more united. However, for the first time since 9/11 I see that some people have become more critical, which is a healthy development.  

Nonetheless I agree that those other events should need attention as well, especially when some of those drama's have not finished yet. I did my share in the past, but more than once I sensed a lack of commitment (or call it: understanding or empathy) from other members. That's why I decided to leave most of these drama's alone (though I do focus on the Israel-Palestina conflict once in a while, and sometimes I want to shine light on the events of WWII, which are less typical for Western people), but of course I am more willingly when others take the lead or co-participate.
 
I think the reason 9/11 resonates so much with Americans (and Westerners in general) because it's much more relatable than genocide in Rwanda for example. We look at 9/11 and think "that could have been me".
 
Suicidehummer said:
I think the reason 9/11 resonates so much with Americans (and Westerners in general) because it's much more relatable than genocide in Rwanda for example. We look at 9/11 and think "that could have been me".

I think there is that and also the threat that something like that can and probably will happen again here.  "Remember Pearl Harbor" was a rally cry, but that ended as a prominent thing in America after the war was over and there was some period of peace with Japan.

Also, this was really the first direct attack on the US since 1941 (I know Hawaii was not a state then, but it was a peacetime attack on the US military and US civilians). 

I think until the threat is defeated or (God forbid) something overshadows the 9/11 attacks, this is and really should be in our minds. 
 
Yes...and no.

It is impossible to defeat the threat of terrorism. Period. You can't defeat a noun, and that danger will always be there. The difference is that it is the first time the USA has seen terrorism in years and years and years - international terrorism, obviously.

Al Qaeda could never conquer the USA. They could never march down Pennsylvania Avenue and install Osama into the White House. Therefore, they must achieve with pinpricks what Germany and Japan could not do with armies and fleets - they must make America afraid of their own shadow, which is pretty much what has happened. They need to make America so worried about the next Twin Towers that they aren't worried about what happens in Iraq, or Iran, or Pakistan. Let them invade and get bogged down in one or two countries like the Soviets did, and bleed the country white.

And that is what has happened, eh? Or very, very close to what happened. As sad as 9/11 is, less people died on 9/11 than die every year in car crashes, or from smoking-related illnesses. Personally, I always wondered why we are so worried about what happens on airplanes. There is no way anyone will ever be able to hijack a plane again. People will risk life and limb to kill or disable the attempted hijackers. The only reason 9/11 happened was because people just assumed they'd be held hostage. When the opposite became known, the last plane was taken down in a Pennsylvania field.

Explosives and the like remain a threat (Underwear Bomber) but not on the same scale as 9/11. That sort of attack from the air is impossible. The real threat remains a sea-borne attack - imagine a bomb on a propane tanker in NY or Baltimore or San Francisco harbor. That's the sort of thing that keeps me up awake at night (figuratively). So why are we going through scanners and surrendering our toothpaste to get on a flight? Beats the hell out of me. The illusion of safety is the only thing I can imagine.

So, if we remember 9/11, it should be that we remember that even in the face of terror, we live free.
 
I see more value in Iraq and Afghanistan than you seem to, but the rest is nicely put.  As someone who flies 50K plus miles a year, I am not too thrilled with some of the happenings at the airport and I think it is safe to say the same type of attack will not happen, there is an awareness of that.  Seaborne, land, some other type of air, or who knows what is more likely for sure. 

But it is an un-defeated enemy, people in other parts of the world live with terror on a more frequent basis that the US for sure, but nothing really on this scale that I can think of off hand and also a large symbolic blow to American/Western culture.
 
I see value in Afghanistan, I see none in Iraq... that was nothing but a self-serving mission by Bush, directly crippling the efforts in Afghanistan... Now who cares as Osama is more than likely hiding in Pakistan...
 
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