War, huh! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

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The thread called "Where were you 5 years ago?" spurred me to write a little rant about the current state of the planet, mostly considering the terrible -- and often unjustified -- actions of some countries or movements. This is in no case an apology of terrorism, but a criticism stemming from my disgust at the waste of so many lives.


What we see of the current situation in the Middle-East and the American as well as Israeli attacks to "punish" or "prevent" terrorism may allow us to draw a fairly simple conclusion: massive military operations, with their inevitable failure to hit "cleanly" the designed targets, do not achieve the goals originally established for their existence. After three years or so, the military campaign led by the USA in Iraq -- starting with a heavy show of power and continuing with the occupation of the incriminated territories -- has completely failed to achieve what it was intended to do, that is bringing peace and stability to a country that used to be held in its dictator's iron fist. You all may have noticed that Iraq seems to be still a long way away from being a stable and peaceful democracy. Likewise, the military intervention of Israel in Lebanon has done nothing to achieve the protection of the Israeli people but, on the contrary, has simply flared up the hatred and outrage of the inhabitants of many Arab nations.

For those of you who like to read or watch old films, I'd recommend that you get hold of The War Lover, a brilliant novel by John Hersey that was made into a film with Steve McQueen in 1962. It relates the story of a B-17 bomber pilot during WWII who loves to go over Germany and "drop his load", while bragging about his success with women back at the airfield. The thing is… he's impotent! This is what I thought of when I saw those glorified pictures of George W. Bush on CNN, parading in a flight jacket on an aircraft carrier and claiming that the US were victorious in Iraq. Pretty much like the bomber pilot of the novel/film, President Bush is bragging a lot, but his wonderful army is quite impotent.

All the wars waged after WWII have shown that massive military operations were actually quite useless and ineffective. Both the USA and the USSR, huge military powers as they are (or were in the case of the USSR), were powerless to tackle efficiently the resistance of the people in countries that didn’t have even half of their military might -- like Vietnam for the USA, or Afghanistan for the Soviet Union -- and eventually had to give up. Besides, the two blocks arising from WWII, the USA and USSR, were not in full control of the countries they thought were "under their thumbs", so to speak: Latin America for the United States, and Eastern Europe in the case of the Soviet Union. Similarly, the so-called "victories" do not last long either. A good example is that of the attack and subsequent invasion of Afghanistan by the US troops, followed by the announcement that the Taliban had been defeated. Now, over four years after the initial attacks, the country is still riddled with violence and the Taliban are still around to wreak havoc wherever they feel like it.

What is more important is that that modern warfare uses all too often disproportionate force and causes the unnecessary deaths of vast numbers of innocent people. In other -- maybe rather blunt -- terms, war has become some sort of terrorism in itself, hence the contradiction of the expression "war on terrorism". These wars started by the governments of the so-called "civilised" countries are far more dangerous for the common people than any terrorist act, as reprehensible and immoral as these are.

Usually, the official reason given for a strike on a civilian area is that "terrorists hide among them", whereby justifying the killing of innocent people in the process, may it be in Iraq or Lebanon (or elsewhere!). Those killings are quite blandly termed "collateral damage", and are considered -- rather unfortunate -- accidents as opposed to what terrorist did with the attacks on New York and Washington, or suicide bombers on market squares in Israel whose actions are deliberate. This distinction is actually quite preposterous and anyone who thinks about it will see where the flaw is. When an area is shelled because military intelligence (what an oxymoron!) has established that a "suspected terrorist" -- such uncertainty should also be taken into consideration, as the attackers admit themselves that they may be wrong -- dwells there, the women and children killed are treated as mere casualties of war. Nice mentality!

Whatever action kills innocent civilians in the process is as immoral as any terrorist attack intended to kill and maim people who have nothing to do in the conflict considered. These "collateral" casualties are far more numerous than any deliberate slaughter committed by those terrorists and raise the question as to waging war against the perpetrators of such awful actions. Let’s remember that US bombs killed over a million civilians during the Vietnam conflict alone, and whereas these deaths probably weren’t intentional, they cannot be ignored. By comparison, the total body count of victims of terrorist attacks since they exist (mid-20th Century until now) is certainly far below this incredibly high number (although I admit that I haven’t got the exact figures).

So, as the launch of large-scale military campaigns to counter terrorism is largely inefficient on top of having a dubious morality, what are we left with? Wouldn’t it be time that the so-called "civilised" Western nations re-think their worldwide policies and finally find a peaceful solution to all this mindless slaughter?



P.S.: Kofi, man, you really have all my sympathy. I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes!  :(
 
Maverick said:
All the wars waged after WWII have shown that massive military operations were actually quiete useless and ineffective.

In my opinion, one occasion was not that useless. The Kosovo war against the Serbs.

(some wikipedia):

"Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back"

The positive consequences:
The most immediate problem — the refugees — was largely resolved very quickly: within three weeks, over 500,000 Albanian refugees had returned home. By November 1999, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 808,913 out of 848,100 had returned.

Some critics have accused the coalition of leading a war in Kosovo under the false pretense of genocide. This was, in fact, no pretense at all. President Clinton of the United States, and his administration, were accused of inflating the number of Kosovar Albanians killed by Serbians. Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen, giving a speech, said, "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide." On CBS' Face the Nation Cohen claimed, "We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing...They may have been murdered." Clinton, citing the same figure, spoke of "at least 100,000 (Kosovar Albanians) missing". Later, talking about Serbian elections, Clinton said, "they're going to have to come to grips with what Mr. Milošević ordered in Kosovo...They're going to have to decide whether they support his leadership or not; whether they think it's OK that all those tens of thousands of people were killed...". Clinton also claimed, in the same press conference, that "NATO stopped deliberate, systematic efforts at ethnic cleansing and genocide."  More:  ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_war ... se_for_War
 
What about the Gulf War? A massive coalition of almost every nation in the world collectively said to Saddam "NO! You cannot do that. It is WRONG." And then proceeded to beat the snot out of the Iraqis until they were out of Kuwait.
 
IronDuke said:
What about the Gulf War? A massive coalition of almost every nation in the world collectively said to Saddam "NO! You cannot do that. It is WRONG." And then proceeded to beat the snot out of the Iraqis until they were out of Kuwait.
The interesting thing about that war was that the then US President and UK Prime Minister (Bush and Thatcher respectively), were ousted during or soon after the war, in one way or another, but Saddam Hussein still reigned on for another 10 years or so.
 
IronDuke said:
What about the Gulf War? A massive coalition of almost every nation in the world collectively said to Saddam "NO! You cannot do that. It is WRONG." And then proceeded to beat the snot out of the Iraqis until they were out of Kuwait.
This is a pretty sad comment and that's really disappointing coming from you. You don't really believe all this propaganda, do you? The war was waged essentially to retrieve the oil fields.  -_-
 
I will concede, Mav, that oil intersts played a HUGE role in determining the international response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. However, I refuse to beleive that simple humanitarian/moral issues were not factors as well. A sovereign country had been invaded by a much larger agressor without provocation, and the international community saw that as something which musn't be allowed.

Mind you, I cannot think offhand when, since WWII, a similar situation has played out (one country outright invading another for the purposes of annexation...it's a rare thing these days), so it is difficult to compare how the international community would treat a non-oil rich state being invaded.
 
Maverick said:
After three years or so, the military campaign led by the USA in Iraq -- starting with a heavy show of power and continuing with the occupation of the incriminated territories -- has completely failed to achieve what it was intended to do, that is bringing peace and stability to a country that used to be held in its dictator's iron fist.

Look, Mav, we all know what the real motive for the Second Gulf War was...and since their primary 'motive' that they broadcasted to the world was to find and disarm Saddam's WMD, it looks like they've failed at that, too!  As Per said in his requests for a better world, it would be much easier if the politicians didn't try to dress up their motives with political bullshit.  I feel like a broken record on the subject of bureaucratic deception and the unfairness of war, so I will restrain myself from a huge rant...for now. :blush:
 
IronDuke said:
I refuse to beleive that simple humanitarian/moral issues were not factors as well

You're so naive that it's almost touching. You'd better get used to this cynical world before it does any serious damage to you, mate.  :(
 
Maverick said:
You're so naive that it's almost touching. You'd better get used to this cynical world before it does any serious damage to you, mate.  :(

I wouldn't go that far, Mav.  I don't think that even Bush and Thatcher would have been so power-hungry as to base all their actions on the desire for oil alone.  At the very least, the humanitarian aims would have done well for them as a suitable exterior motive.
 
Raven said:
I wouldn't go that far, Mav.  I don't think that even Bush and Thatcher would have been so power-hungry as to base all their actions on the desire for oil alone.  At the very least, the humanitarian aims would have done well for them as a suitable exterior motive.

You found the right words there.
 
Well, either they find a way to have peaceful resolutions OR more likely evolve their military strategies. WWI and WWII played a huge role in "modernizing" warfare, using Jeeps instead of horses, Tanks isntead of cannons, airplanes, etc. But by the time Vietnam came along that was no longer the most effective way. As you pointed out Mav, they killed many civilians in vietnam and they did it on purpose too, because the Vietnamese had resorted to guerilla warfare. There were many cases of women and children carrying bombs and blowing up soldiers who, thinking they were normal civilians, tried to help them. After a few of tose incidents they rethought their strategy. I've even heard stories that planes would fly by dropping candy and many children would come out of the bushes and another plane would follow dropping a bomb.

So just like we have left the horse and sword behind, maybe the idea that bigger is better needs to be dropped as well...
 
IronDuke said:
Mind you, I cannot think offhand when, since WWII, a similar situation has played out (one country outright invading another for the purposes of annexation...it's a rare thing these days), so it is difficult to compare how the international community would treat a non-oil rich state being invaded.
Let me remind you of the years 1956 and 1968, in Central Europe... :(
 
IronDuke said:
Mind you, I cannot think offhand when, since WWII, a similar situation has played out (one country outright invading another for the purposes of annexation...it's a rare thing these days), so it is difficult to compare how the international community would treat a non-oil rich state being invaded.


1950: North Korea invades South Korea- World reacts against the spread of Communism
1957: Indonesia invades West New Guinea- Dutch fight back, West New Guinea is Indonesian to this day
1963: Morocco invades Algerian Tindouf- Algeria manages to drive the Morrocans out
1973: Libya annexes Aozou Strip
1975: Morocc and Mauritania invade West Sahara- Despite UN efforts, the country remains under Moroccan control until this day
1976: Indonesia invades East Timor- World reacts 30 years later
1977: Angolan troops invade Katanga (part of Zaire/Congo)- Western powers react by helping the Congo because the Angolans are backed by Cuba and the Soviet Union
1980: Iraq invades Iran (Purpose: Annexation of Iranian Arabistan)- World reacts by selling weapons to Iraq, Iran or both
1982: Argentina occupies the British Falklands- Thatcher reacts by sending two thousand people to their needless death

Although it ceased to be the main cause for war, it has not become that rare.
 
It's pretty obvious, or it should be pretty obvious, that you can't shove democracy down a people's throats. US presence in Iraq is a prime example of that. Without democratic traditions it takes time, perhaps even generations, to change the system. It's not enough that the world around you say that you should do this or that.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, we heard talk about instant capitalism and "tough love" to force them into a democratic system and look where it got them; crime, crime lords, elderly people actually wishing for "the good ole days" of Stalin?! Russian history tells us that it never was a democratic country - for 100s of years the people were ruled by the Tsar and the only major difference with the communist system was that a new elite got the power and the privileges. Russia had no democratic traditions to fall back on.

Democracy isn't something you can implement over night, it grows from the grassroots on up. It seems the "powers that be" are turning a blind eye to that fact in the interest of something else.

About the war on terrorism: no matter how just you're cause is, when you start bombing subways, fly airliners into buildings with thousands of innocent people in them, spread poisonous gas in the subway system and so on, you've already lost your legitimacy. I think we, as in the western world and especially the European Union and the USA, must work hard on the underlying causes. We need to look at ourselves a bit m ore. Why do so many people in the arab nations hate us so much? What cause have we given them? There is nothing in the Quoran (sp?) mentioning that a righteous moslem must hate Americans or Europeans, but many in these countries do. I strongly believe that it's these things we need to work to change. The more "terrorists" we kill, the more followers the Al-qaida's of the world get. It must stop soon. Iran claims they're working on nuclear weapons - what if they decide to up the ante and put a device in the UN building, or in Los Angeles, or London? What's to stop them? We need to start working on the causes for the hatred, not increasing that very hatred by carpet bombings and sending in special forces.

In my humble, but hearfelt, opinion.
 
Anomica said:
It's pretty obvious, or it should be pretty obvious, that you can't shove democracy down a people's throats. US presence in Iraq is a prime example of that. Without democratic traditions it takes time, perhaps even generations, to change the system. It's not enough that the world around you say that you should do this or that.

My thoughts exactly. The most spectacular failure in my opinion is Palestine. Here, you have a country that is not independent and largely occupied by another country. The Palestinians feel threatened by the Israelis, and there is much hatred on both sides. Parties like the Hamas promise the people to get rid of this threat. Now, there are democratic elections in exactly this situation. Is it really a surprise that the Hamas gets a landslide? Turn on your, brains, people! First peace, independence and stability, then free elections.
 
Per, none of the situations you posted are quite the same, for a myriad of reasons. I especially disagree with your assesment of the Falklands War. What else whould Thatcher have done? Would it have been ok to say to the world "Yes, the people there are British citizens, want to remain British citizens, and have repeatedly told the world so. But since Argentina wants the place, we'll let them have it." Sometimes violence IS the answer, my friend. It was the only thing the thugs behind the generalissimo would understand.

Mav, I'm not going to reply to your ad hominem arguments. Shame, sir.
 
IronDuke said:
Mav, I'm not going to reply to your ad hominem arguments. Shame, sir.

It wasn't an argument, but a mere statement. I find it sad that somebody with your intelligence can be one of those brainwashed kids who think that a massive military campaign can still benefit the people of the invaded country. We don't fight for the 'good of the people' anymore, but for money and power. If Rwanda had had oil fields, I'm pretty sure that an attempted genocide would have been avoided back in '94. So don't tell me that armies are sent off abroad for humanitarian reasons.  :huh:
 
IronDuke said:
Per, none of the situations you posted are quite the same, for a myriad of reasons. I especially disagree with your assesment of the Falklands War. What else whould Thatcher have done? Would it have been ok to say to the world "Yes, the people there are British citizens, want to remain British citizens, and have repeatedly told the world so. But since Argentina wants the place, we'll let them have it." Sometimes violence IS the answer, my friend. It was the only thing the thugs behind the generalissimo would understand.

Right, disregard the Falklands, that is indeed a special case. What do you have to say to the others?
 
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