Violins against Maiden

Forostar said:
Who told you that? I hear you when you say blues was influential, but metal is not just coming from the blues.
Lots of metal bands certainly have roots in classical music.
He said Metal exists because of Classical. Not some (mostly post 80's, excluding Neo Classical shred) Metal bands derive parts of their sound from Classical. Huge difference.

Early Metal came mainly from the Blues, in a nutshell, to simplify, to make a point. Some Jazz too I guess, which as I recall, parallell evolved next to the blues.
 
I am not sure about that.

Fast riffing in e.g. death metal (or on e.g. Priest's Jugulator) sounds more like the fast playing of cellos in some aggressive part in a classical piece instead of anything from blues music.
 
Forostar said:
I am not sure about that.

Fast riffing in e.g. death metal (or on e.g. Priest's Jugulator) sounds more like the fast playing of cellos in some aggressive classical piece instead of anything blues music.
Again. Metal exists because of the blues. Black Sabbath, early Priest. All blues (as in, blues and its followers) influence. We would still have Metal without Death Metal, would we? You're pinpointing certain elements in by comparison, modern metal that have similarities. As I'm not in Judas Priest, I can't tell for 100% certain, but I highly doubt that Jugulator was very much influenced by Classical. It was Priests attempt to reinvent their sound, trying to sound as modern and brutal as they could. That influence came from the newer, aggressive type of Metal and they wanted to show that they were still vital.


To clarify: I'm not denying that some more modern Metal have incorporated elements that comes from classical. But the essence of Metal, that is, the sound of early Metal, came from the Blues (with some minor renaissance in the form of Deep Purple.). Then along the way, other influences were brought in, but that were really after Metal was cemented as a style of music/genre. We already had Metal at that point.

Also, I did a paper on Death Metal. As far as I understood, it's way more reminiscent of Jazz, not classical.
 
Well, if you call all hard(rock) music of the seventies metal, then I can see what you mean.
But the genre we are talking about ranges a way bigger period. And the term metal was more in use since the 1980s.

This more aggressive type of metal doesn't sound anything like the blues. The same goes for less aggressive music since the mid seventies. It sounds more like classical music and indeed jazz (I agreed on the jazz input. I remember playing Maiden to an old collegue of mine and he thought some parts sounded like jazzrock. :) ).

Some early (hard)rock also sounded more like classical music than blues because of its complexity.

Classical influence has shaped metal. Blues may be the ground on where it(s forerunner) started, but it certainly wouldn't have sounded the same if classical music wouldn't have existed. So that's why I agree with The Flash.

Don't forget that classical music had its influence on Jazz as well.

edit:
This part found in the Heavy Metal wiki article describes well how I see it:

Robert Walser argues that, alongside blues and R&B, the "assemblage of disparate musical styles known...as 'classical music'" has been a major influence on heavy metal since the genre's earliest days. He claims that metal's "most influential musicians have been guitar players who have also studied classical music. Their appropriation and adaptation of classical models sparked the development of a new kind of guitar virtuosity [and] changes in the harmonic and melodic language of heavy metal." The Grove Music Online states that the "1980s brought on ...the widespread adaptation of chord progressions and virtuosic practices from 18th-century European models, especially Bach, Wilhelm Richard Wagner and Vivaldi, by influential guitarists such as Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads and Yngwie Malmsteen". Kurt Bachmann of Believer has stated that "If done correctly, metal and classical fit quite well together. Classical and metal are probably the two genres that have the most in common when it comes to feel, texture, creativity."
 
Judas Priest are certainly Metal. Some people, like Mick Wall, considers them the first 100% Metalband (with the release of British Steel). What I'm saying is, whatever classical influence, came after Heavy Metal had cemented itself. And minf you, that Heavy Metal stemmed from the Hard Rock like Zeppelin, The Who and AC/DC etc.  

Yes, I totally agree that Metal wouldn't have sounded exactly the same, but we would still HAVE Metal - That's what this debate was originally about! The Flash claimed Metal wouldn't exist without classical!

Also, about Jazz being influenced by classical? Sure, I guess in the form of instrumentation, but the reason they used standing basses and cellos is because that was what was around in the early days. It wasn't because they listened to a Classical concerto and thought, "Wow, I want to play these instruments too, but as a jam!". It's because they were the instruments that were around. So in terms of instrumentation, yes.

However. Jazz and Blues came from African Americans. The early Jazz and Blues (their origins are the same. I like to view early Jazz as Blues improvisation: The basics of Jazz is to solo over a given chord sequence. It also contains a lot of Blue notes, as in, the Blues scale), as in the original Jazz and Blues sound, had virtually nothing to do with classical either. It was the poor man's music (and was despised by the people of higher social stature).

Edit: Hold it while I read through your edited post!

Okay. Yeah, he's basically talking about Ritchie Blackmore as Yngwie Malmsteen. As I already stated, Ritchie incorporated minor classical influences. But was in essence a blues rock player. He mostly played pentatonics. Now, about Smoke On The Water: Until the 20th century, the 4th interval was perceived as dissonant. Classical music used it, but to create tension (not sure about renaissance though!) Over time, that changed and it's not viewed as consonant. Anyways, back to Richie. Smoke on the Water is built upon intervals of 4ths - That's something he got from renaissance music. But as I said, he was still in essence a Blues player.

I can't speak for Van Halen, but I said I excluded Neo Classical, for obvious reasons - Which is the sub genre Malmsteen created (and Rhoads was, after the creation of the genre, viewed as a Neo Classical guitarist too).

Also: Feel, texture and creativity. That's not really saying that much about the music, does it really? Texture, I guess that can translate into song structure (that's generally applicable to Progressive Metal Bands (and some, like, a bit, Iron Maiden), and Death Metal, which is much more freeform when it comes to structuring - Death Metal doesn't follow the ABAB form like most pop and a lot of Metal does). But creativity and feel doesn't really say much about how the music sounds - It just says that it can be very creative (which Metal is! It has a shitload of sub genres almost unlike anything else). It doesn't really say that they are similar. At all.
 
Yax said:
That's what this debate was originally about! The Flash claimed Metal wouldn't exist without classical!

Originally yes, perhaps. But I do not mind looking more into it in depth.  :D

This you also may found interesting:
Early classical influences within hard rock and heavy metal are most notably found in the playing of Ritchie Blackmore, Uli Jon Roth and Randy Rhoads. The styling existed mainly with guitarists but was also present with other instrumentalists, such as Yes keyboardist Rick Wakeman.
(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_metal )

Blackmore did that before Heavy Metal cemented itself.
 
Forostar said:
Originally yes, perhaps. But I do not mind looking more into it in depth.  :D

This you also may found interesting:
Early classical influences within hard rock and heavy metal are most notably found in the playing of Ritchie Blackmore, Uli Jon Roth and Randy Rhoads. The styling existed mainly with guitarists but was also present with other instrumentalists, such as Yes keyboardist Rick Wakeman.
(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassical_metal )

Blackmore did that before Heavy Metal cemented itself.
Oh yes, I covered Blackmore in my previous post!  :innocent: I have repeatedly said that he incorporated elements of renaissance, but he was in essence a blues player (which is something I recall Yngwie has said too - That's what got him bored of Purple! Too much blues). And I also said I excluded Neo Classical, which is a sub genre and has inspired most of MODERN lead guitarists (however - What made people attracted to Malmsteen is really the blazing skills and speed! Not the use of Bach chord progressions, Phrygian mode and Harmonic Minor and diminished chords - Although they are part of his sound, it was the skills that made people go "wtf?").

So to conclude: No Classical - Still Metal! But different. No Neo Classical Metal, different type of modern lead guitarist - Maybe more Jazz based?

No blues: No Rock music.

Also! I might be slow to respond now, time to cook dinner and hang out with the GF before she leaves town for a few days. I will try and check the thread though! This argument is refreshing!  :D
 
I think that it's not unimportant in this discussion to define the term heavy metal. You tend to drag all "hard" seventies music into it, but I tend to say that this term was used later, thus the classical influences were there from the beginning, and not after it had cemented.
 
Forostar said:
I think that it's not unimportant in this discussion to define the term heavy metal. You tend to drag all "hard" seventies music into it, but I tend to say that this term was used later, thus the classical influences were there from the beginning, and not after it had cemented.
Yes, I drag them into it, as I said, because they influenced what would be Heavy Metal (Judas Priest! Mick Wall considers British Steel to be the first 100% Metal album, yet Judas Priest were always a Metal band to him ,besides Rocka Rolla - Yeah, I see the slight contradiction), so when saying Heavy Metal, I start from Sabbath and Priest and onwards. Neo Classical is mid 80's really - And by that time, we already had Screaming for Vengeance, The Number of the Beast, early Thrash bands were rehearsing, Mercyful Fate, Kill 'Em All etc.  And Neo Classical metal mostly influenced the Lead playing as I said. Mostly. And again, the early classical influences are minor, really.
 
Yax said:
Yes, I drag them into it, as I said, because they influenced what would be Heavy Metal

That's not what The Flash said. At least, I imagine that he talked about the genre itself.

Yax said:
, so when saying Heavy Metal, I start from Sabbath and Priest and onwards.

I don't. The earlier music sounded different and there weren't different terms for nothing.
And that's why we disagree on this matter. :)

Yax said:
And again, the early classical influences are minor, really.

Depends on if you hear them. In Priest of 1977 I already hear some classical sounding influences.
In Let Us Prey I hear that excellent harmony which could have been played by a full orchestra. Deep Purple also integrated such harmonies. I am sure there are more examples.
 
In relation to the original statement "Metal exists because of classical music".

Well... it's hard to really say it's true because the time span is so great and it may have evolved anyway, but really... as Classical was the big thing hundreds of years ago, I guess all music now exists because of it - whether it incorporates it or not.

As a more direct thing, I would say the blues. Blues evolved into Rock n Roll, then a more hard rock sound, which then progressed into the early metal (Sabbath). That was further evolved into a heavier raw sound again.... and then over the years bands have taken more classical influences in and pushed into new genres.

Metal has a lot of similarities with Classical, I'm there I read a news report once that said that Metal has the same brain stimulating properties as classical music, and that usually more 'intelligent' people listen to one or the other, and they deemed it to be due to the technical composition of the two genre's. But in a sense of "Only exists because of", implying that it evolved from Classical... I disagree. Contains elements of, and exists because of.. are two completely different statements.

As for Priest, Rocka-Rolla to me is more bluesy than Metal.. and certainly more so than Classical. The first 5 years or so of Priests releases show a pretty strong evolution from a more Blues-Rock sound (imho), into the heavy metal we know them for now.


Oh one more thing, anyone who says "I live in the real world" instantly loses credibility to me, for implying that talking to other people in this medium is somehow 'fake', particularly ironic when they say it while arguing. The majority of them are usually sat on facebook 24/7 aswell. Growing up I was ridiculed for spending all my time talking on MSN, now I'm ridiculed not because I'm on the internet but because I'm not on the right part of it.
 
Almost 100% agree, Crimson (and yeah! Rocka Rolla is indeed blues rock! Very different to Sad Wings of Destiny). About the similarities between Classical and Metal, it's more like in the way that it's technical etc etc, not actual influences. Similarities and influences - Not the same thing. About people listening to Classical music. Yes, people of higher social rang did! That is why it's really the only old European form of music that's been documented. The common people? No.

Oh, and Foro! About classical influences in Priest? It's a bit far-fetched, don't you think? Just because it has harmonies doesn't mean it's classically influenced -Besides, classical harmonies are often very, very strict (as in, they abide by a shitload of rules) in a way that Metal harmonies most certainly are not, and almost always corresponds with the bass instruments (I think. Been 1,5 years since I took a music theory class abd we did some basic classically inclined harmonization). So it sounds to me more like you're actually looking for influences.


Back to the dinner!  :p
 
Yax said:
So it sounds to me more like you're actually looking for influences.

Tell that to Tipton.

source:
Ultimate-guitar.com: Nostradamus is a very different and more adventurous Judas Priest album compared to the band’s previous efforts.

Glenn Tipton: Because the album is a concept album, it enabled us to step into areas that we normally wouldn’t have stepped into. And though we’ve always dabbled a bit in Baroque classical music, this album is almost operatic in places. But the music is the appropriate thing from our point of view, in order to tell the story of Nostradamus. And because of that, it enabled us to step into these slightly different areas. Yet funnily enough, it still came out sounding very much as Judas Priest.
 
Night Prowler said:
here comes your ghost again...

:D
I was waiting for that.  :D

No, but it's quite a surprise! Not that Tipton likes it, but that KK does too (Tipton likes to listen to Film scores).

Edit: Or more like, that Tipton claims they've always liked and dabbled with it. It's obvious that they do like it: They did Nostradamus.
 
IIRC from the book I've got, KK's main influence was Hendrix, to the extent that when he first joined the band that later became Priest he was better at imitating the stage flair than the actual guitar playing  ;)
 
Crimson Idol said:
IIRC from the book I've got, KK's main influence was Hendrix, to the extent that when he first joined the band that later became Priest he was better at imitating the stage flair than the actual guitar playing  ;)
Exactly!  :D
 
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