Very intresting article: modern production values

gor

gor

Ancient Mariner
in what has turned out to be one of the most intresting threads ever on the bb (if you ignore some maiden sheep in it), alot gets explained about what has been the problem on recent productions. the thread starter linked us to an eye-opening article, take the time to read it!

[a href=\'http://www.geocities.com/ukguitaristring/over_the_limit.html\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.geocities.com/ukguitaristring/over_the_limit.html[/a]

this is the original thread:

[a href=\'http://www.ironmaiden.org/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87425&perpage=15&pagenumber=1\' target=\'_blank\']http://www.ironmaiden.org/bb/showthread.ph...15&pagenumber=1[/a]


this is what bob wrote (5th page)

Just checked few similar Maiden songs in Cool Edit:

Aces High has range from -8 dB --> 0 dB
Be Quick or Be Dead -11 dB --> -2 dB
Mercenary -4 dB --> 0 dB

Rainmaker -1 dB --> 0 dB
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Originally posted by BoBo on the IMBB
On the next two images you can see wave forms for all songs on Dance of Death and Powerslave albums.

[a href=\'http://www.aspalathosoft.com/dod.gif\' target=\'_blank\']Dance of Death[/a]
[a href=\'http://www.aspalathosoft.com/powersave.gif\' target=\'_blank\']Powerslave[/a]

White line is -1 db mark.


Here you can see three different versions of Wildest Dreams
- CD version,
- WD single DVD stereo mix
- WD single DVD Dolby Digital mix

[a href=\'http://www.aspalathosoft.com/wdreams.gif\' target=\'_blank\']Wildest Dreams[/a]

There is a slight difference between two stereo mixes, but difference between stereo and surround mix is noticeable. [/quote]
 
After reading Red Dahl's [a href=\'http://www.ironmaiden.org/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87425\' target=\'_blank\']thread[/a] I emailed Kevin the wonderful links to the [a href=\'http://www.geocities.com/ukguitaristring/over_the_limit.html\' target=\'_blank\']page[/a] with the rant about modern recording values, as well as all the great .gifs bobo made. He replied within hours! here it is:


Thanks for those - I tend to agree with the reviewer

I am not in favour of the louder recordings. Digital compression in mastering is the bane of my existance!!

Best,
KS

 
Well...
First, sorry for my poor english...

I don't think that the quality of the music can be measured with computers, multimeters, oscilloscope, or something like this.

Music is not mathematics !

I remember the movie Dead poet circle, the scene where the poetry's quality is calculate with a graphic.

Here, it's the same thing.

Anyone can think that the sound of a record is good or bad. To each one his opinion.
But no one can say that he has THE PROOF that a sound is good or bad because his computer says it.

Music is an art !

So, throw your computers and use your ears ! [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

Lib
 
Slight correction: you meant The Dead Poets Society, with Robin Williams. Excellent film! [!--emo&^_^--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/happy.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'happy.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

However, we were not talking about the songs here, but about the production -- therefore the sound of the recording. Can you imagine Piece Of Mind produced like one one those modern rap-shit records?

Dance Of Death is not bad per se (that's a matter of taste), but the production is very different than Powerslave's (to use only this example) as far as the output we hear is concerned.
 
Production doesn't matter as much to me as it might. I listen to lyrics first, music second. But I think the Caveman did a great job with Dance of Death.
 
I wouldnt mind if Maiden did one more Album with Martin Birch producing and see what the new stuff will sound like maybe re-master and re-produce X-Factor. I think that was produced way under par.

Also in all the albums that i have heard you can hear Clive Burrs kick drum, but you can never hear Nicko's as loud ? Anyone know the reason to this.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Lib+Apr 21 2004, 07:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Lib @ Apr 21 2004, 07:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Music is not mathematics ! [/quote]
The last few weeks or so I have been writing an essay on modern computer music and one read of any given paragraph of it would prove music is mathematic.

At one time, music was taught as part of maths in schools.

Music is one of the most mathematically based things I can think of.
 
Also, that writer doesn't actually define 'loudness'.

To demonstrate loudness, the best example to give would be a 0-20,000 Hz chirp (not as in bird chirp but as in radar chirp, used in some radar work) which goes right through the human hearing range starting as a simple sine function which is f(x) = sin(x) and eventually morphs into an oscillating function such as f(x) = sin(20,000x). The amplitude of this would not change but the perceived loudness would. This is because the perceived loudness will change as the sine enters different Fletcher-Munson curves. Basically, how loud we hear something is mostly a result of amplitude but also a result of frequency.

Meaning that the music on the CD could be mastered at alternative frequencies as a result of electronic mastering. Amplitude can be perceived directly as loudness but a note at low amplitude and high frequency could be said to be louder than a note of low frequency at high amplitude. The writer of that article doesn't mention this in his article, proving it is quite a biased piece not looking at all aspects of the production of music.

If high frequencies are the answer, some mastering could leave a small 'hiss', much like tape hiss; inaudible to our ears but shown by a computer. Since a CD has a range of 0Hz to 22,500kHz and the average human hearing range is 20Hz to 20,000kHz would could be getting cut could be the high frequencies which aren't that important.

Otherwise, it's a result of laziness in the mastering process or bad mastering software.
 
To say that music can be broken down mathematically is to not fully appreciate it as an art form.

Music is an art form, very much akin to poetry. You cannot judge its quality by applying a formula or measuring its frequencies. You have to listen to the entire thing and try to analyze it for its impact on you. One does not look at the Mona Lisa one square centimetre at a time, trying to apply rules of colour combination and proportion, one looks at the entire thing and appreciates it (or rejects it…it’s all a matter of taste!)

Ancient Mariner, if you’d be willing to post your essay here when you complete it, I’d be curious to read your arguments to the contrary.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-The Ancient Mariner+Apr 22 2004, 08:51 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(The Ancient Mariner @ Apr 22 2004, 08:51 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] The last few weeks or so I have been writing an essay on modern computer music and one read of any given paragraph of it would prove music is mathematic.

At one time, music was taught as part of maths in schools.

Music is one of the most mathematically based things I can think of. [/quote]
Yes, you’re right, I have maybe write that too fast. It’s even Pytagoras who have lay the foundations of the modern music. So I apologize [!--emo&;)--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/wink.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'wink.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

But let me say :

Rock’n roll is not mathematics ! [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--] [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]

In fact, that I really wanted to say by the word “mathemathic” is the simplicity of the argument in the article : like 1+1=2.
That I have understood is :
- if the computer shows an irregular graphic : the sound is good and dynamic.
- if the computer shows a regular graphic : the sound is bad, and lifeless.

But, it’s also true that Dance of Death is recorded too loud : I have recorded it on a tape for my car, and on this poor equipement the sound have some problems (not with the others albums) : for example, on the third part of “Pashendale”, the Adrians’ rythm (alone in the begining) disappear as soon as the rest of the band enter.
 
When the essay's done, I'll post it somewhere on here. It does, hoewever, mostly deal with the basic theory of electronic music (the formulas, the ideas, the technology etc.) so it may not help much specifically with this argument, but if you're interested in all aspects of music then it may well appeal to you!

And, Lib, yeah I do agree. Rock 'n' roll is not mathematics, but at the same time I am merely arguing my point using it to counteract his points, which also use it.

And there's no denying that parts were cut but this could be as I previously said, a mixture of things such as bad equipment, cheap computer editing, copying before mastering thus cutting off altitudes exceeding certain limits, or even just plain laziness from modern producers.

Being able to press buttons to make it sound good and being able to press Undo any time something goes wrong could well lead to sloppy production. Back in the 1980s, producers would be working hard to get it sounding good, and always being careful not to do anything wrong because there might be no chance of correcting it. Time and effort was put into it.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-The Ancient Mariner+Apr 22 2004, 03:07 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(The Ancient Mariner @ Apr 22 2004, 03:07 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Basically, how loud we hear something is mostly a result of amplitude but also a result of frequency. [/quote]
Regarding human hearing, loudness is all about amplitude. Frequency is pitch and is completely unrelated. Remember, I'm speaking only about the human ear here, not recording technology. Trust me on this - I just had to learn it 2 weeks ago for a biology exam!
 
Not strictly true. Frequency does effect loudness. If you listen to a radio chirp through headphones, there will be times when, despite the amplitude always being the same, you will have to turn it down in parts (mostly the higher and lower notes) because your brain is telling you "too loud", even though the amplitude is exactly the same throughout.

It's like if you're playing a guitar and you stop, which produces high pitched feedback. You instantly turn it down despite it being the same volume as what you were playing at.
 
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