USA Politics

[Azas]

Another set of, and far more relevant, examples with democratic socialism would be the scandinavian countries - the places generally rated as the top countries to live in and highest in the happiness indexes. Sure, these days, particularly in Sweden, there is less of social democracy and more of market neo liberalism with social programs and less of social democracy of circa pre 2000, but still. Social democracy does not just equate to Venezuela…

I fully agree with you that the Scandinavian countries are good examples. What I want to emphasize is what I see as the increasingly toxic messaging and overall stance of parts of the U.S. far left. That's the trend I find most concerning.

 

[Vaenyr]

If I need to explain to you why people on the far left who still have wet dreams about communism and Marxism are loons, then we simply live on different planets.

In other words, you have no examples whatsoever to substantiate your claims. You cannot how any negatives that the far left has done in the US in the last 20 years, so your claim that "both extremes are crap" is unfounded, purely based on vibes, and not supported by reality.

Furthermore, you can't explain your position. You simply have certain feelings, and those are "your truth". Good for you, but that's not enough for others. If you can't even explain your position, this simply proves once again that you were never interested in having a discussion. You simply wanted to bitch and moan. Cool.

Communism is not thriving in any country on this planet. From my perspective as an Eastern European, it's quite baffling - if not downright depressing - to see some Westerners still looking at those ideas with admiration and awe.

In large parts thanks to the US literally sabotaging and staging coups against communist nations. They weren't even given the chance to "thrive". At the same time Capitalism is responsible for millions of deaths worldwide, more and more people are falling into poverty and the planet is being destroyed for the profit gains of a few mega corporations.

You being Eastern European is completely irrelevant to the topic. We aren't talking about Eastern Europe. The people we are (supposed to be) talking about aren't there. We're in a different century, in a different world. It's pretty naive to think that new attempts at socialism or even communism simply must have to be the same way the Soviets fucked up. Have you read any of Marx's writings? It is really so outlandish that someone would read them, be inspired for change, and want to enact them in a different way than Soviet Russia did?

I disagree with all of it. Period.

So: No list, no examples, no facts. Only your feelings. Thanks for confirming!

Why would anyone take the time and considerable effort to engage with your diatribes when you only ever argue in the worst possible faith?

How am I arguing in bad faith? Seriously, explain it. Just because I'm not polite with concern trolls and folks who consistently post in disingenuous ways, doesn't mean that I'm posting in bad faith. I'm asking people to give specific claims and they always refuse to do so. Hell, you showed that you posted in bad faith earlier, where I gave you a lengthy and detailed current quote from her, and suddenly you were only interested in making quips, instead of talking about it.

Aloso, let's not forget that the post you just responded to was in response to @Obnoxymoronyx who at this point has 9 posts, 3 of which are about me. That must be some Vaenyr Derangement Syndrome

You have made it abundantly clear over a span of literal years that you are a leftist ideologue, you interpret everything that your ideological bedfellows say in the best possible light and interpret everything that anyone with a different view says in the worst possible light, making reasonable discussion practically impossible.

Eh, I never made it a secret that I'm a leftist. But the bolded is simply not true. I'm literally asking people to explain their position so that we can discuss them, and yet either they refuse to do so or they end up posting things that are simply factually incorrect. When people are taking certain positions out of context or fall for edited videos on twitter, I have to set the record straight and explain why the ragebait they posted isn't actually bad when we look at it.

Maiden is my favourite band, yet when I have an issue I will criticize them for it and call them out. I'm fiercely loyal to my friends, but if they behave in a bad way, I will be honest with them and tell them. Same with political views, I have absolutely no issues to call out "my side", as long as the criticism is actually warranted and valid. I agree that there are loons in the Democratic Party for example, I simply disagree on who those loons are. For me the loons are the unhinged zionists like Fetterman who enthusiastically support a genocidal campaign enacted by a foreign government.

Give me examples, when have I interpreted things in the worst possible light, simply due to disagreeing with them? Be specific, let's talk about it.

On top of this you engage in the most fatuous pedantry, insisting that others 'educate and inform' themselves at every turn whilst playing the hatchling and faux-helplessly demanding that you are spoon-fed every scrap of information to disseminate with everybody knowing full well you will dismiss any such evidence that contradicts your own views out of hand in an instant.

Oh come on, this is pathetic and you know it. I want people who make verifiable claims, especially those who have been caught blatantly lying in this thread time and time again, to substantiate those claims with actual facts. I know that Azas for example has literally said before that he doesn't care about facts, his feelings are more important, but that doesn't mean that we can simply accept any outrageous claim as true just on vibes. He's also routinely shared falsehoods and thought saying "guys, I don't know if this is truuuuue, but if it is!!!". Multiple other posters here have corrected him in such instances as well, so this isn't a me-thing. If a person is falling for ragebait on twitter and then shares falsehoods here, isn't it fair game to tell them to better inform themselves? Are you genuinely making the argument that people should not strive to update the information they think they know?

We aren't talking about subjective things, we are talking about stuff that can be very clearly proven wrong or right. I'm not asking to be spoon-fed information, I'm calling out the person to show any kind of evidence for their claims because I know very well that the actual facts and data contradict their bullshit claims.

So yes, if someone is lying, has no idea about a topic and is spewing bullshit, they need to educated and inform themselves. This should not be controversial, this should be the baseline for threads such as these. You're grasping at straws at this point.

But what really rubs me up the wrong way, and is the reason I'm writing this post is that the way that you talk down to others (just see any of your replies to Azas), regularly belittling their intelligence and level of education, being insulting and domineering. You're entitled to whatever political views you desire, but the fact you seem to think it gives you the ground to behave in such a spiteful manner towards others whilst deluding yourself into thinking you're sat on some moral high horse leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

You can take a look through the thread and my responses. There are users who I've disagreed with and where everyone (that includes me ) was respectful to each other. But when someone consistenly posts in bad faith and blatantly lies, the gloves come off. This isn't a one-off incident. Azas and I have interacted for multiple years. Hell, he even made racist attacks based on my ethnicity and didn't even get a warning for it, something that if I had done I'd have gotten a ban for. He has made veiled attacks towards me personally time and time again, as well as anyone remotely on the left. Of course he's just baiting me, but I'll call out his nonsenseout either way.

Again, our prevous interaction shows this quite beautifully: I asked Azas to be specific. You returned with a CNN link that had a few quotes. I responded to you in a calm and respectful manner. I wasn't talking down to you. I wasn't belittling your intelligence of level of education. I didn't insult you. I gave a long and detailed current quote of the candidate. I gave a detailed overview of my thoughts, why a couple of deleted tweets from years ago aren't important compared to the wider political context right now. Your response to all that? A laughing reaction and a quip. So don't talk about "worst possible faith".

You may sit around thinking that you are some virtuous hero 'owning the chuds' or some such but frankly, most people you smugly reply to just find you to be a tiresome boor.

This might surprise you, but I genuinely don't care about what people think of my "smug replies". When I see fallacies, I call them out. When I see bad faith behaviour, I call it out. When I see blatant lies, I call them out. It's that simple. If people are tired of my "smug replies" they should stop fucking lying all the goddamn time

I'm sure you will respond with your customary 'but show me exactly where I did these things, trawl through my entire posting history and give me specific examples or... I win, I win, I win!' so just to make you aware in advance, I can't be bothered, it is not a productive use of my time.

In other words, just like Azas, you cannot substantiate your claims and think you can get away with this lmao
No, preemptively writing something like that doesn't change the fact that you very obviously can't back up your bs. It should be very easy to do so. I don't need people to like me, I don't care about "winning" or "owning the chuds". I want the truth and I want people to at least be honest.

As I've pointed out before, I'm tired of "centrists" only attacking the left, when there are literal fascists in power at the moment. This says a lot about these kinds of people and they will get no grace for me. Not if "dunking on the loony left" is more important to them than defeating fascists.

I think the article below answers many of the questions Vaenyr has raised in discussions with me about radical leftism, socialism, and related topics.

It's written from the perspective of someone who fled Venezuela and describes what she later found in the United States. Of course, it can always be dismissed as "just one person's opinion," but I do think it raises questions about certain trends and worldviews present in some parts of U.S. academia.

I also decided to repost it because it was shared by Garry Kasparov, the prominent Russian chess grandmaster and outspoken anti-Putin activist, who now lives in the United States and whose judgment I generally trust.

Link to the article.

Op-eds are pretty much worthless, since you can find one about any given topic. We could also post articles with the exact opposite conclusions. It is fair game to post it as it's own thing if you want to discuss it, but it does not answer any of the questions I have raised.

It's just funny, that I asked you multiple times to share your thoughts, yet you refuse. The only thing you do is post someone else's opinion because you saw it on Twitter lol. Is it that difficult to use your own thoughts to formulate answers on specific questions?

 

[Vaenyr]

Great news, another DemSoc won! This time in Colorado, so this isn't contained to NY.

Democratic socialist Melat Kiros defeats longtime US House incumbent in Colorado

Democratic socialist Melat Kiros has defeated U.S. Rep. Diana DeGette in a Colorado House primary. It’s a stunning victory for the first-time candidate against an almost 30-year incumbent.

apnews.com

 

[Azas]

To Yax and other people of goodwill on this forum, I have no problem with Social Democracy. We look at Northern Europe with admiration and aspire to live like those countries. On healthcare and workers' protection, I'm definitely centre-left, or perhaps not even that centrist. At the same time, I support a strong national army, etc.

But I definitely have big problems with socialism or democratic socialism, which is much more extreme, denounces capitalism altogether, and wants to replace it.

Also, I posted an article in which a Venezuelan exile gave many answers, based on her own life experience, as to why socialism is bad and why it is so often used as a form of populism to lure people in. After that, authoritarian leaders use the country's wealth to enrich themselves. Now, if Trump is doing something similar, why should I believe that another branch of populists, next time from the left, would act any differently?

The article I reposted gives many answers to anyone with normal reading comprehension and the ability to use logic. Of course, that does not automatically mean that the US would face a similar outcome, but it does suggest that the very core of socialism is a flawed approach. It's perfectly acceptable to criticize the current state of affairs in the US, but at the same time, I think it's delusional to justify, even indirectly, what authoritarian leaders do. In the article, Bernie Sanders was presented as an example of that tendency.

Too bad none of it matters when one of the forum knights has a certain tactic. Everything will be dismissed as non-substantial. But the fact is that he is on the extreme side of the political spectrum, and his views are not sustainable for the well-being of society. In fact, I think—just my opinion—that his views are far more extreme than he lets on. Over the last two pages, he even let slip several pearls that give a much broader understanding of his actual views.

From his latest posts, I conclude that he supports communism/marxism. "I'm sorry, but so what?" He even went as far as saying that national borders do not matter because they have changed throughout history. So I assume you have no problem with Putin redrawing the borders of European countries. Also, apparently, it's purely the US's fault that countries in South America are doing poorly. Sure—it has absolutely nothing to do with their corrupt and authoritarian regimes that preach socialism and its supposed virtues to their own people.

All I can say is this: run from the far-left worldview just as fast as you would run from the far right. In my opinion, both are bollocks. Utter crap.

 

[Vaenyr]

Also, I posted an article in which a Venezuelan exile gave many answers, based on her own life experience, as to why socialism is bad and why it is so often used as a form of populism to lure people in. After that, authoritarian leaders use the country's wealth to enrich themselves. Now, if Trump is doing something similar, why should I believe that another branch of populists, next time from the left, would act any differently?

As already stated, op-eds are useless because I can find articles that state the exact opposite.

The article I reposted gives many answers to anyone with normal reading comprehension and the ability to use logic. Of course, that does not automatically mean that the US would face a similar outcome, but it does suggest that the very core of socialism is a flawed approach. It's perfectly acceptable to criticize the current state of affairs in the US, but at the same time, I think it's delusional to justify, even indirectly, what authoritarian leaders do. In the article, Bernie Sanders was presented as an example of that tendency.

I asked you very specific answers and you didn't answer any of them. Neither does your article. So much for "reading comprehension". You were asked for your opinion and your words. Not whichever random article popped up on your twitter feed.

Too bad none of it matters when one of the forum knights has a certain tactic. Everything will be dismissed as non-substantial.

That's not true. I gave you an in-depth answer of the candidate and you refuse to engage with it. Is having more information when discussing a certain topic a bad thing? Yes or no?

But the fact is that he is on the extreme side of the political spectrum, and his views are not sustainable for the well-being of society.

That's a declarative statement. Care to elaborate? Which of my positions are not sustainable? Be specific.

In fact, I think—just my opinion—that his views are far more extreme than he lets on. Over the last two pages, he even let slip several pearls that give a much broader understanding of his actual views.

When have I ever stated that I'm not far left? I'm a socialist. I'm not a communist. I've been completely consistent over multiple years. Say what you have to say instead of this cowardly behaviour. I have never lied on the forum and I talk openly about my views and positions. Ask me about legislation I support or positions and I can explain exactly where I stand.

From his latest posts, I conclude that he supports communism/marxism.

I have explicitly stated before that I'm not a communist. I'm simply not falling for red scare propaganda. There's a difference. So much for "reading comprehension".

He even went as far as saying that national borders do not matter because they have changed throughout history.

It is an objective fact of reality that borders are not something inherent that exists as part of the world. Humanity has come up with them and they do change all the time.

So I assume you have no problem with Putin redrawing the borders of European countries.

Quit the strawmen. I have never said anything even remotely close to that. I'm completely against Putin and his imperialist regime.

Also, apparently, it's purely the US's fault that countries in South America are doing poorly. Sure—it has absolutely nothing to do with their corrupt and authoritarian regimes that preach socialism and its supposed virtues to their own people.

See, this is what I mean with you desperately need to educate yourself because you very clearly have no idea about this topic. Here, how about you read up on some history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

All I can say is this: run from the far-left worldview just as fast as you would run from the far right. In my opinion, both are bollocks. Utter crap.

And once again you have not substantiated this childish and naive opinion in any way. I asked you specifically to give examples of the far left's action in the US in the last 20 years and you didn't provide anything. Because you have no data or facts on your side. You go by vibes and feelings and nothing will ever change your mind, because you are entirely divorced from reality.