USA Politics

[bearfan]

As always, take Wikipedia with a grain of salt, but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_pr ... ed_Kingdom

salient points are, 99,000 prisoners in the US are in private prisons, there are also private prisons in the UK.

I do not know enough about this to say for sure, but I think they private prison lobby is fairly minor in prisoners in the US.  The war on drugs, mandatory sentances, 3 strikes laws all really designed to make politicians of all parties look "tough on crime" and not be the one that can be linked to someone getting out of prison too early and commiting another crime.

Prisons certainly have a place and there are some people that belong in them (and throw away the key), what I do think is that some people should be given a non prison option and way to expunge their record for minor crimes versus falling into the revolving door.  I have never been in one, but just watch Lockdown on CNBC or similar shows, what a horrible place to be that cannot help but escalate minor crimilas to major criminals.

 

[Cornfed Hick]

I have never been in one, but just watch Lockdown on CNBC or similar shows, what a horrible place to be that cannot help but escalate minor crimilas to major criminals.

Must...resist...juvenile...urge...to...post..."salad tossing"...link...again...

 

[bearfan]

Please resist

 

[Wästed The Great]

Must...resist...juvenile...urge...to...post..."salad tossing"...link...again...

You know, you could post the link to the thread that had the link and you could scratch your itch while not devolving too far... 

 

[Cornfed Hick]

I'll be a grown-up and let it drop.  There's enough in the last few posts to lead a curious browser to the video anyway.

Back to SMX's theory, about 5 minutes of Google research (pretty rigorous, huh?) uncovered a term called the "prison-industrial complex" which suggests that large corporations like IBM and Revlon use cheap prison labor provided by private prisons.  This suggests that SMX may be on to something.  That the two most noteworthy proponents of this theory are Angela Davis and Jello Biafra, however, is cause for skepticism.  Maybe this can be Wikileaks' next pet project!!  

By the way, the Wikipedia article Bearfan posted seems well-written, well-researched and balanced.  It, in turn, links to an NPR article on the new Arizona immigration law, in which the author suggests the law was designed with one aim in mind: to increase the supply of prison labor in the state.  Which, if true, is chilling, and again suggests that SMX is on to something.  It also suggests that the prison lobby is more powerful than I thought.  

 

[Genghis Khan]

In Western religions, the central metaphor for tragedy is sin. Humans are different from their Creator because God is perfect and we are not. God, however, gave us "free will" because we are his favorite creation. Humans must exert their free will to do good, despite being inherently sinful, in order to gain entry into heaven and live an eternal afterlife in paradise. Sin then becomes the justification for blame and punishment. You deserve to be punished if you don't exercise your free will to overcome your inherently sinful nature.

Sorry, I know this was a conversation between you and Wasted, but I just started reading this and thought I'd give my own brief thoughts.  My understanding is that the author thinks believing in free-will is bad because it leads to blame and punishment?!  That's not the problem with free-will but rather a religious take on ethics.  I don't consider the typical secular view on morality to be the alternative to religious morality.  

 

[Forostar]

free-will is bad because it leads to blame and punishment?!

In Western religions where the central metaphor for tragedy is sin, yes. He doesn't say it literally, but I assume he doesn't believe in free will in such circumstances.

Let's take a look at this again:

In Western religions, the central metaphor for tragedy is sin. Humans are different from their Creator because God is perfect and we are not. God, however, gave us "free will" because we are his favorite creation. Humans must exert their free will to do good, despite being inherently sinful, in order to gain entry into heaven and live an eternal afterlife in paradise. Sin then becomes the justification for blame and punishment. You deserve to be punished if you don't exercise your free will to overcome your inherently sinful nature.

The bold part is not what he wants, or what he finds good. In his view this is how it unfortunately is.

Did you read the Provine statement I made? This puts it more blunt, but might lead to the same conclusion.

That's not the problem with free-will but rather a religious take on ethics.

I'm no sure what you mean but naturally, the author has a problem with religious ethics.

I don't consider the typical non-secular view on morality to be the alternative to religious morality. 

What is the typical non-secular view on morality?

 

[Onhell]

NO NO NO NO! Free Will IS NOT bad. Good lord... Free will is neutral, you can choose to do either "a" or "b". Our NATURE is good, but sure enough is tainted by sin, because he have not received Grace by God.

this means that, because we are sinful we will usually tend to make "bad/wrong" decisions (greedy, selfish, etc).

This does not automatically make Free Will itself wrong, it just means we have to be more conscious of the decisions we do make.

 

[____no5]

In Western religions where the central metaphor for tragedy is sin, yes. He doesn't say it literally, but I assume he doesn't believe in free will in such circumstances.

A meaningless point: Western people are pagans by tradition.
Christianity is basically an eastern religion. The sin thing appears in the so called Religions of the Book, one of them being Christianity.

 

[Onhell]

A meaningless point: Western people are pagans by tradition.
Christianity is basically an eastern religion. The sin thing appears in the so called Religions of the Book, one of them being Christianity.

We are Not going to argue semantics or geography here... Sure Judaism, Christianity and Islam originated in the Middle East, but they took hold of the "WEST."  Thus they are "WESTERN" religions. EASTERN Religions are Hinduism, Budhism, Taoism, etc...

 

[Genghis Khan]

@ Foro:

I was in a rush and mistyped.  Before I had a chance to change it, I had to go.  The bad edit is "non" before "secular".  The way I left it was redundant, redundant and made no sense. 

Anyway, you may still not understand.  In a word, I don't buy altruism as a good ethical system.

 

[____no5]

We are Not going to argue semantics or geography here... Sure Judaism, Christianity and Islam originated in the Middle East, but they took hold of the "WEST."  Thus they are "WESTERN" religions. EASTERN Religions are Hinduism, Budhism, Taoism, etc...

I consider Judaism & Islam definitely not Western religions, Christianity is more colored, mixed with some pagan elements, but still does not qualify... Religions of the Dessert is the best I can give!
Anyway, you're right, let's not continue, it's not the point here and we never gonna convince each other... I told you it was meaningless...

 

[Onhell]

I consider Judaism & Islam definitely not Western religions, Christianity is more colored, mixed with some pagan elements, but still does not qualify... Religions of the Dessert is the best I can give!
Anyway, you're right, let's not continue, it's not the point here and we never gonna convince each other... I told you it was meaningless...

Agreed. This thread never gets boring

 

[Deleted member 7164]

Adrian Smith doesn't care about East and West.

 

[Onhell]

He is all encompassing...

 

[Perun]

Religions of the Dessert is the best I can give!

Mmh, Religion of the Dessert. I really worship that cherry pie.

I know what you mean 5, but I have to disagree. Both Judaism and Islam are actually very urban religions, and that is precisely what made them stick out historically. Islam in particular is coined for urban life, and has only very little in common with actual bedouin practices. It is a common misconception, because we consider Arabia a desert country, but it's no coincidence that Islam sprung up in the biggest Arab urban centres of its time, Mecca and Yathrib (Medina)- both were cosmopolitan crossroads for trade routes all accross the penninsula.

 

[____no5]

Mmh, Religion of the Dessert. I really worship that cherry pie.

I know what you mean 5, but I have to disagree. Both Judaism and Islam are actually very urban religions, and that is precisely what made them stick out historically. Islam in particular is coined for urban life, and has only very little in common with actual bedouin practices. It is a common misconception, because we consider Arabia a desert country, but it's no coincidence that Islam sprung up in the biggest Arab urban centres of its time, Mecca and Yathrib (Medina)- both were cosmopolitan crossroads for trade routes all accross the penninsula.

The desert is the key element, the soul of these religions, and the equivalent of the forest for European paganism. I meant it in this way. They were born in the desert and the desert is a major element, for to understand them.

Both Judaism and Islam are actually very urban religions

I have to give it a second, more careful thought, and I need more arguments, too. Right now, I disagree.
I’m thinking of Abraham turning his back to Babylon, Lot to Sodom, Jesus facing the Satan in the desert. I’m thinking the Qu’ranic stories for Ibrahim, and the caravan of Mohamed’s uncle. I’m thinking the strict rituals both religions have, which determine every single detail of a day. Why this need in the comfort of a city? I’m thinking of their strong tribal character. Their strict ethics: an urban religion should be more tolerant to the sin. I’m thinking of the pork, whose meat becomes very quickly dangerous in hot conditions; other kinds of meats must be well cooked. I’m thinking of their strong patriarchal character and the stick of these religions for the absolute, the unique, the one and only. This could never take place in Europe with its rivers, forests & colours.

It is a common misconception, because we consider Arabia a desert country

Arabia is a desert country, and where I live, no matter its un-doubtfully cosmopolitan character, dessert is present everywhere. Everywhere. The start, the essence, the reason, the end.

but it's no coincidence that Islam sprung up in the biggest Arab urban centres of its time, Mecca and Yathrib (Medina)- both were cosmopolitan crossroads for trade routes all accross the penninsula.

In the way that you put it, all religions but shamanism, are urban.

 

[Perun]

The dessert is the key element, the soul of these religions, and the equivalent of the forest for European paganism. I meant it in this way. They were born in the dessert and the dessert is a major element, for to understand them.

Sorry mate, this just reads too funny. You mean desert - one 's'. Dessert is what you eat after a meal.


In any way, I think we both are talking about different things, a bit. I'm not talking about the greater environment, but the immediate surroundings in which the religions developed. The social presuppositions for both religions were cities. I'm just uncomfortable with the term "desert religion", because most people have the image in their mind of a bloke sitting on his camel riding through sand dunes - and that is not what Islam is.

 

[____no5]

Sorry mate, this just reads too funny. You mean desert - one 's'. Dessert is what you eat after a meal.

Fucking dyslexia!  

In any way, I think we both are talking about different things, a bit. I'm not talking about the greater environment, but the immediate surroundings in which the religions developed. The social presuppositions for both religions were cities. I'm just uncomfortable with the term "desert religion", because most people have the image in their mind of a bloke sitting on his camel riding through sand dunes - and that is not what Islam is.

I'm talking about the genesis, the myth and sub-consciousness (yet things with immense importance in a religion). You speak more practically and with the purpose to delete a faulty image Western people have.

This image needs, in deed, to be deleted in a first stage.

 

[bearfan]

Back a bit to more US politics, looks like the finally tally for the House is GOP +63, a massive gain and even more massive gains in state legislatures.