USA Politics

It's hard to say for sure with Kim. A year ago, he was showing propaganda videos of the White House being blown up with nukes. If he just wants to defend his country, why is he displaying so much threatening material to go along with it? As long as he appears to be such a threat, we have to stay prepared for anything.

As far as Trump goes, it seems that the liberal media is attacking and hounding him more than any other president in history which might be making him look a lot worse than he really is. I can't say for sure. Also, I noticed that on this forum when I've brought the issues of gay people and abortion, everyone on here defends those. I don't see people on both sides arguing back and forth on those issues which leads me to believe that most on here probably lean more towards the left and if that's true, most of you probably get your news from media outlets that also lean more towards the left who are all just trying to make Trump look bad. Maybe I'm wrong though and Trump really is that bad. Again, it's hard to say for sure.
 
The USA frequently overthrows strongmen dictators just like Kim that they have decided they don't like, and Kim is indeed just that - but he believes nukes are a path to safety for his regime. Guy doesn't actually want to blow up the White House, or more accurately, he understands that even with nuclear weapons, he will lose any war he starts with the USA. He's well aware what happened to the last country that sucker-punched the USA militarily, and he knows that if he nuked, say, Honolulu, it would do nothing but ensure every single American would be ready to pay the incredible cost to depose his government and see him killed. In other words, if he swings first, he loses, and he loses 100 times out of 100.

He is also aware that if he has a nuclear weapon and can reasonably point it at Honolulu, that the United States will not risk attacking him, because the USA has no interest in being nuked over North Korea. It's the same principle that exists every day in our world, with the Russians still possessing full nuclear capacity. He just wants the same belt of safety, and the rest of it is a pissing contest designed to intimidate the average westerner and to show his people he's big and tough.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the North Koreans to have nukes, but it seems inevitable that they will eventually create a small nuclear arsenal.

As for the other, Travis - I am unashamedly a left-wing progressive liberal (small L). But it's not just the mainstream media that dislikes Trump - the National Review, one of the oldest right-wing publications in the US, is also very much against Trump. Lots of senators, including McCain, a party presidential nominee, are also against Trump. It's pretty easy to see that he's not just getting a "bad rap". We do have a few American conservatives (though I think they're pretty moderate-liberal on social issues), but I'm pretty sure it's just not fun anymore to talk about it. It's a goddamn trainwreck in the White House, and it's not just spin. Sure, there's some spin, but a critical mind can read through it.

Anyone who says Trump is anything other than the worst president of the post-Nixon era is lying. Straight. Up. Lying. His poll numbers have entered late-term George W. Bush levels. His Obamacare repeal plan failed. He has zero major legislative achievements. He's isolating the USA from allies near and far, including my own country. And that's before you consider the incredible level of personal turmoil that surrounds the President...it ain't getting any better.

I've always said, Travis, you can ask any question and it will be answered. Usually, it is answered respectfully - sometimes, people lose their shit, but that will happen - but I'll never, ever tell you anything other than the simple, unvarnished truth from my point of view. That truth might be complex, but I will make it as clear as I can. And here's the clearest thing I can say:

Trump is a disaster, and he needs exactly zero spin from any media to make it seem that way. The facts of the matter are more than enough to condemn him in this aspect. Maybe it'll change, and if he does a good thing I'll happily say so. But there hasn't been any good so far.
 
Perun said:
I do not think that Kim is irrational enough to attack another country. I actually don't think he is irrational, or a madman
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I am not convinced. At least I find him very dangerous to his own people. Also in a mad way. He kills them in concentration camps, he kills family, even outside NK. Who says such a man who can feel threatened or enraged so easily (paranoia) will never push the red button?

Something else, I already knew that Trump is mad before he was elected, thus I have a better idea of judging mad people than millions of ignorant people who voted for him either did not mind he became President. Yey. What a remarkable, what a difficult achievement that was. "Everything better than Clinton", remember? Come again? Man, were they wrong. From the beginning. Some people were so stuck in relatively unimportant matters (e.g. e-mail scandal, or Dem party politics; yes it was foul that Sanders had not a better chance, but what is more foul: that or Trump, real rocket science isn't it?), that they did not have a clue what the alternative was. That was plain DUMB. Now I hope the Americans have paid attention to what happened and maybe next time they will also judge important matters in the next elections. People their character, people their (racist) intentions, people their programs. But you need to be able to judge well. Judge what someone does, judge what someone says. Basically: stop being so ignorant.
 
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Can I see a link DIRECTLY from The National Review where it says they're against Trump?

Also, are there any super die hard right wing republicans who would pretty much be the opposite of left wingers like LC here on this site who don't like him?

I guess until Trump does something that affects me and my family in a VERY DIRECT way, I'm not going to worry too much about it. I'm still curious about my inquiries though.
 
From: https://www.defconwarningsystem.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10649&p=82465#p82464
SEOUL, Sept. 3 (Yonhap) -- Top South Korean and U.S. military officers agreed Sunday to take military measures against North Korea for its latest nuclear test.

In a phone call with Gen. Joseph Dunford, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), his South Korean counterpart Gen. Jeong Kyeong-doo stressed the need for "effective military responses" to the provocation aimed at demonstrating the allies' force and resolve, according to Jeong's office.


Dunford voiced support for the offer and vowed cooperation, as they agreed to discuss all military measures against the North under the spirit of the alliance, it added.

Jeong also had phone talks with Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, commander of the U.S. Forces Korea and the allies' Combined Forces Command, shortly after news broke of the North's sixth nuclear test earlier in the day.

They agreed to take combined military measures against North Korea as early as possible, said South Korea's JCS.
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And from the same thread:
South Korea's military warned Sunday that it's preparing for strong measures in response to North Korea's sixth nuclear test.

South Korea and the U.S. have the "adequate capability" to retaliate against the North's .
provocation, as the two sides are coordinating with each other more closely than any other time, the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) said in a statement.
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Forostar said:
I am not convinced. At least I find him very dangerous to his own people. Also in a mad way. He kills them in concentration camps, he kills family, even outside NK. Who says such a man who can feel threatened or enraged so easily (paranoia) will never push the red button?
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I tend to agree with Perun on this. Just because he treats his people horribly doesn't mean he's crazy enough to launch a nuke. He has to know it's the one action that would cause both China to abandon him and the USA to destroy him. He wants the freedom to continue treating his people the way he does.

I guess, in short, what I'm saying is that cruelty to his own people isn't a sign of madness, but a sign of cold calculation. This kid will cut down anyone who threatens him internally. He's more of a sociopath than anything else, but he certainly has some level of self-preservation, or he wouldn't be so ruthless.
 
LooseCannon said:
Here is an article literally titled "Against Trump": http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430137/donald-trump-conservative-movement-shouldnt-support-him
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Well, that was right around the time he became president. What have they been saying about him in the last 6 months? Still, it is some very strong stuff against him coming from right wingers. And again, are there any die hard conservatives on here who are also against trump? I'm just wondering.

And as bad as Kim treats his people, I do hope you're right about him not being crazy enough to launch a nuke. Only time will tell on that one unless we end up doing a preemptive strike.
 
Treating people badly is not a crime, nor is possessing nuclear weapons. Also, not being UN member state is not a crime, either, and everything you do you do because of the general consensus that countries should cooperate with each other. Let me explain this;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons

So North Korea withdrew. There is no legal standing on which you can disable NK from producing and testing nuke ICBMs. You can choose not to cooperate with that country, whole world can do so, but that's it. You just can't attack them.

That's theory. In practice we all know that madman is running the show, that they're threatening with direct strikes. This allows for a justified preemptive strikes. However the pretense that something should be done about NK because they're human right abusers and nuclear producers is completely, utterly wrong. "Human rights" aren't quantifiable and has different meaning from culture to culture. Ask a Saudi (a "normal" person, not a Wahabbi idiot) on the streets of Riyad what human rights mean for him and you'll get a different answer than anywhere in Europe.

Therefore, you make the madman stop threatening and launching test articles. How? Easy. First make an international coallition made of SK, Jap, China, Rus and US. Then demand. If he doesn't bow down, carpet bomb the artillery strip at their side of DMZ and pinpoint strike known chemical weapons facilities. This will disable NK from retaliating with massive amounts of conventional and chemical ordinance against Seoul. Would Kim retaliate with nukes? 99% no.
 
There are human rights and there are human rights

A woman cannot drive a car versus locking people up in harsh conditions/flat out killing them are not really equal .. though I do not think that in and of itself would be any kind of reason to strike ... there are plenty of other places that do that as well

One thing that is for certain is the never ending cycle of North Korea saber rattling/giving N. Korea aid to stop saber rattling ... repeat ad nauseam did not work across all moronic Kim regimes.
 
bearfan said:
A woman cannot drive a car versus locking people up in harsh conditions/flat out killing them are not really equal
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Where's the standard, the law, the guidebook? Besides you'd cover a lot of UN member states with that sentence, USA included. For the sake of the argument, let's say we had this discussion 50 years ago. There would be no significant country in the world that wasn't guilty of grave human rights abuses.

I agree 'we' should react when someone is being abused somewhere. What constitutes as abuse, who exactly are 'we' and what exactly do we do isn't put down on paper and ratified. That's the problem.

Regarding your assessment of the Kim-give-us-food roundabout, you're spot on.
 
There is no standard .. there probably should be at least some really basic standard .. but then you get back to the problem of if country A violates the standard, how do you prove it and what do you do about it.

Sanctions are probably the best tool for that ... not invasion.

North Korea is a bit of a different animal given that they have nukes and are a threat outside of North Korea ... that should be the basis for any actions ... if it helps with the human rights issue, which I think by any standard, they are clearly violating .. that is a bonus
 
bearfan said:
There is no standard .. there probably should be at least some really basic standard .. but then you get back to the problem of if country A violates the standard, how do you prove it and what do you do about it.
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And the standard of what do you do if a world power violates the standard...not like anyone is going to hold the UK accountable, let alone Russia or the US...
 
LooseCannon said:
And the standard of what do you do if a world power violates the standard...not like anyone is going to hold the UK accountable, let alone Russia or the US...
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Realistically you do nothing ... beyond maybe economic sanctions, which has been the case with Russia
 
There is International Criminal Court but few of most powerful countries aren't signatories. It's like that anti-landmine treaty, where largest standing armies didn't sign so it's kinda pointless. There is a larger China<->US play in the theater, if they didn't have "conflict of interest" situation would be solvable. Chinese don't want US influence on the whole Korean peninsula, but they don't want a warmonger either...China is growing in peace. Hermit Kingdom was passable for both, the old Kim did shout a bit, then he'd get his rice and Hennessy and STFU. This one is out of any Chinese control. As you might remember, Chinese did have a favourable candidate in the form of Jong-Il's brother or cousin, he got Stalin'd in the process, dead, and erased from the lore too.

On the other hand, nobody is mentioning Japan. Their "self defense forces" are one of the most capable army this world has ever seen, complete with aircraft carriers and remote supply bases on several continents. Basically with the amen of China, South Korea and Japan could handle this all by themselves. It is unrealistic due to everything between China and Japan, but it would be the most elegant option politically. You aren't dragging US or Russia in, so no fueling of 70 year old propaganda.
 
bearfan said:
Realistically you do nothing ... beyond maybe economic sanctions, which has been the case with Russia
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And in the end, that's the problem. If you can't force the big people to obey these rules, how are you ever going to force smaller nations with any convincing attitude?

Zare said:
You aren't dragging US or Russia in, so no fueling of 70 year old propaganda.
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Any part of Korea vs Japan is very likely to dig up older propaganda...
 
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