USA Politics

RTC and LC both made some good points and I think both agreed that women should have equal standing in the work force, the core difference was really how to get to that point. That is interesting, posts that basically call anyone that does not agree with a particular implementation as a (toss on whatever "ist" comment you want here)/morally inferior person is not overly helpful and pretty much brings any real debate to a 100% halt

This is the biggest problem I have with the ongoing social justice movement, mainly concentrated in left politics. If I were to place myself on the left-right political spectrum, I'd call myself centre-left, as such there are a lot of things that I agree with, within the movement. However, I think it's being ruined by the point you've brought up. A lot of people that I share common ground with politically have completely lost the memo that the point is reaching liberty. Many members of social justice movements have completely done away with healthy debates and started to opt for name calling and belittling people who have different ideas than them. They want to witchhunt people for their ideas. The "ist" words are being cheapened. There actually are racists, sexists etc. out there. To label people who so obviously aren't that cheapens the word.

I refuse to think that these people represent the policies and ideologies I support but the amount of people who fit this description is very overwhelming.

People disagreeing with you, questioning your views and criticising you is very healthy. It contributes to self-reflection in a big way. As a young person, I've been experiencing the benefits of being interested in questioning what I've thought, listening to people of widely different ideas for years now. You may hear something from an entirely different political and social background and go "Hell no" at one point, but realize "He might have a point" years later. To disrupt this healthy atmosphere has the potential to be destructive.
 
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It's pretty difficult to discuss what you think when some pretty indisputable facts are side-stepped by quoting a few websites Travis probably has bookmarked.

The gender pay gap?
I provided a link to say it's a myth.
It's a myth? Is this where the discussion is at? If we can't agree on the facts, what is there to discuss here? I'm not debating whether there's a gender gap, when there is one. I'm interested in a discussion of why it's there & how it's addressed.
LC, it appears your problems with how women are treated is due to the societal attitudes of a minority. All of the problems you listed are societal in nature, and not in anyway endorsed or even tolerated by western governments. We don't need a Rosa Parks or MLK figure for women, because the work they did for black people has already been done for women in this present day and age. All that remains is the prejudice bigots, who are slowly being phased out as the generations pass by, and who are almost impossible to be convinced to drop their prejudices. If you want a system where men and women are treated as equals, and given equal opportunities for employment; provided that the employer is not sexist which is unlikely in this day and age as described, you're living in one.
This statement says: gender inequality does not exist in the Western World; or it's so insignificant as to be negligible. Again, where is the room for discussion here? I mean, RTC can't even get to the point of the discussion. Why is there still inequality & what (if anything) can be done about it? This is what we should be discussing; although, I accept, not necessarily in this thread. Rather than criticism of members who are only expressing total disbelieve of what they're reading, criticism should be aimed at those who have nothing to add to the debate besides reels of empty rhetoric which, in reality, really do add nothing to the discussion.
 
It's pretty difficult to discuss what you think when some pretty indisputable facts are side-stepped by quoting a few websites Travis probably has bookmarked.

This has nothing to do with Travis, so I don't know why you're bringing him up, other than to make us look daft by de facto.

It's a myth? Is this where the discussion is at? If we can't agree on the facts, what is there to discuss here? I'm not debating whether there's a gender gap, when there is one. I'm interested in a discussion of why it's there & how it's addressed.

A 23 percent pay gap = the difference between the average earnings of all men and all women working full-time.

This does not take into account the actual occupations, positions, education, hours per week or job tenure. The feminist use of this statistic is misleading; it makes you think that women are being oppressed when they are simply more likely to choose different career paths.

This statement says: gender inequality does not exist in the Western World; or it's so insignificant as to be negligible. Again, where is the room for discussion here? I mean, RTC can't even get to the point of the discussion. Why is there still inequality & what (if anything) can be done about it? This is what we should be discussing; although, I accept, not necessarily in this thread. Rather than criticism of members who are only expressing total disbelieve of what they're reading, criticism should be aimed at those who have nothing to add to the debate besides reels of empty rhetoric which, in reality, really do add nothing to the discussion.

What on earth are you talking about here? There is no collectivist patriarchy discriminating against women solely based on their gender; especially not one sponsored by the state, unlike in places like Saudi Arabia, it's mostly just a small, vocal minority of prejudice misogynists. Feel free to argue around it; I'm not shutting you down from making a case against me and being obtuse, which is what you seem to think I'm doing. I'm just trying to create a convincing argument for my position.

I criticized Foro because he made an attack on my character based on my position, without even trying to debunk my argument; it was a useless post that contributed nothing to the conversation. I, on the other hand, am trying to further the conversation.

Gender should not matter. I understand you're looking to achieve a greater good, but it's counter-productive to constantly highlight gender when gender should not matter.

Whether you agree or not with someone's position, it is always good to have these kinds of conversations. It's always good to have your positions challenged, and to learn and develop yourself.
 
It's a myth? Is this where the discussion is at? If we can't agree on the facts, what is there to discuss here? I'm not debating whether there's a gender gap, when there is one. I'm interested in a discussion of why it's there & how it's addressed.
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No, Cried. We can't agree on "facts", because the "facts" you believe to hold truth are misplaced. Great that you've lumped thousands of works on the intricacies of gender pay gap with Travis' bookmarks. Very constructive indeed.

An article by Christina Hoff-Sommers

Christina Hoff-Sommers is not some "woman who doesn't work for her rights" like many third wave feminists would like to say upon reading this article, she's a classical feminist.

The stats and reports that conclude there's a gender pay gap generalize stats by looking at the broad picture without taking lifestyle choices into account. Lifestyle choices include the majors you opt for, and the distinction between family matters and work matters. The economic argument ends here. The counter argument is usually social, stuff like "Girls are discouraged from participating in various fields because of gender stereotypes". The programs that encourage girls to opt for these majors have been receiving huge funding for a while now. -Talking strictly West here, of course- The numbers show the success of females has actually decreased during the course of these programmes. Another argument is "Lack of role models". I'm sorry but you have to be delusional to think that "role models" are the reason boys are more interested in STEM subjects. Stats from non-work related sources show that males show much more interest in STEM subjects. Wanna check it out for yourself? Look up the gender demographics for social media platforms for subjects like electronical engineering. Even from childhood the differences in interest is evident. Boys usually gravitate toward toys/games/activities that include taking things apart, building things and physical things, whereas girls gravitate towards toys/games/activities that involve care, maintenance and verbal skills. Does this mean there are no boys/girls that break the mold? Of course not. But the percentages in preferences explain the gap in percentages in college/university major demographics, and those demographics explain the general pay gap. Girls who are really passionate about a STEM topic do not get discouraged by some random effect, they go for it. And it's very disrespectful to women to say "They're easily influenced to give up what they want". It's utter horsecrap.
 
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This is the biggest problem I have with the ongoing social justice movement, mainly concentrated in left politics. If I were to place myself on the left-right political spectrum, I'd call myself centre-left, as such there are a lot of things that I agree with, within the movement. However, I think it's being ruined by the point you've brought up. A lot of people that I share common ground with politically have completely lost the memo that the point is reaching liberty. Many members of social justice movements have completely done away with healthy debates and started to opt for name calling and belittling people who have different ideas than them. They want to witchhunt people for their ideas. The "ist" words are being cheapened. There actually are racists, sexists etc. out there. To label people who so obviously aren't that cheapens the word.

To be fair, it's just as bad on the other side of the debate, with the constant amount of threatening vitriol SJWs get, which I don't think anyone deserves. Gamergate was an absolute clusterfuck on both sides.
 
To be fair, it's just as bad on the other side of the debate, with the constant amount of threatening vitriol SJWs get, which I don't think anyone deserves. Gamergate was an absolute clusterfuck on both sides.

Yeah, of course. Being more inclined to take offense in the actions of people who usually have the same ideologies as me is all. The amount of douchebags on the other side of the debate is pretty high. (A lot of them aren't even egalitarians, they're legitimate misogynists who have orgasms when some women get taken down in a debate)
 
It's a problem on both sides for sure. I think it is extra blatant on the internet and since a lot of mainstream websites have more liberal content, it seems particular bad on the left.
Being more inclined to take offense in the actions of people who usually have the same ideologies as me is all.
This is what it comes down to for me. When someone I disagree with does it, I can just brush it off. But when someone who shares the same ideology as me is doing it, I feel that all they do is ruin any credibility brought to the debate by others. If someone was close to having their view changed (even if only a little), someone coming in and berating them could undo that progress.

This is an obstacle the feminist movement seems to be facing right now. There are a lot of real feminist issues (many of which outlined by LC) but they get obscured by people on both sides who are more interested in shouting matches, empty rhetoric, and ad hominens. It took me having to try my best to ignore that stuff to really take the issues seriously. There are crazy people on both sides of any given issue, but also rational people who can disagree while still having a thought provoking discussion. I think this has been proven many times before on this forum.

criticism should be aimed at those who have nothing to add to the debate besides reels of empty rhetoric which, in reality, really do add nothing to the discussion.
i.e. Forostar?
 
I strongly disagree with RTC but he has made his points clearly and intelligently. It was an interesting discussion to follow.

I have far more respect for that than someone I agree with contributing nothing to the discussion besides personal attacks and an endlessly edited meltdown. Why even bother posting?

Everybody chooses what they respect the most. I know there are people out here who get a kick out of form or intelligent talk about something they totally not agree with. Fine. But I am not like that. Truth, having an eye for "what is real", that is what matters to me.

RTC indeed does it very intelligently. But when there's denial of facts, respects stops at some point.

I don't let wrong talk (however intelligently brought) fool myself. That may sound rude, but RTC constructs his "argumentation" in such a neat way, that he doesn't seem to need trustful information. Well, I know what I know, and I feel LC is right. People can have another opinion, but when certain truths are denied, because they are in some stage of their lives (or stay like this forever)... sorry, I can already see it's no use. And I don't want to get in some kind of "discussion club argument", especially not when the best arguments are already made. Denying needs to be addressed. LC already addressed the content, I address the lack of content.

But carry on applauding something you don't agree with. "Well debated!"
I criticized Foro because he made an attack on my character based on my position, without even trying to debunk my argument; it was a useless post that contributed nothing to the conversation. I, on the other hand, am trying to further the conversation.
No, I attacked, as Cried called it, indisputable sidestepping of facts. Perhaps that sidestepping is behaviour. But if you really do not believe anything LC says, then I address your sense of reality.
 
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This question of gender inequality is non-existent in (former) communist countries. There have been scientific studies on that matter. Look it up.
 
Everybody chooses what they respect the most. I know there are people out here who get a kick out of form or intelligent talk about something they totally not agree with. Fine. But I am not like that. Truth, having an eye for "what is real", that is what matters to me.

What you're describing here is close-mindedness. I mean, if your position doesn't change, that's fine, it shows you had confidence in your values which in this instance are well-intentioned no matter what side of the debate you're on, but constantly thinking that your reasoning is truth and all counter arguments are delusional probably suggests that you're the one that is delusional.

I feel this quote is appropriate: "If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole." Not inferring that Foro or anyone else is an asshole at all by this, but a similar line of thinking can be thought of for those who disagree with you.

RTC indeed does it very intelligently. But when there's denial of facts, respects stops at some point.

It's not so much a denial of facts as it is a misrepresentation of facts on your end to present your narrative.

I don't let wrong talk (however intelligently brought) fool myself. That may sound rude, but RTC constructs his "argumentation" in such a neat way, that he doesn't seem to need trustful information. Well, I know what I know, and I feel LC is right. People can have another opinion, but when certain truths are denied, because they are in some stage of their lives (or stay like this forever)... sorry, I can already see it's no use. And I don't want to get in some kind of "discussion club argument", especially not when the best arguments are already made. Denying needs to be addressed. LC already addressed the content, I address the lack of content.

Again, I'm not denying facts, I'm denying the context they are being used to suggest. It's a false cause fallacy. I don't think LC is insane to derive the conclusions from the facts he gathered; as bearfan pointed out, ultimately we want to achieve the same thing, which is equality of opportunity and outcome in the work place, but we have different methods to achieve our goals.

But carry on applauding something you don't agree with. "Well debated!"

So because we don't agree with it, it must have no merit at all? This is just bigotry on your end.

No, I attacked, as Cried called it, indisputable sidestepping of facts. Perhaps that sidestepping is behaviour. But if you really do not believe anything LC says, then I address your sense of reality.

Implying I don't believe anything LC said is absurd, I'm not arguing against the facts, I'm arguing against the conclusions he is deriving from the facts.
 
It's a false cause fallacy. I don't think LC is insane to derive the conclusions from the facts he gathered; as bearfan pointed out, ultimately we want to achieve the same thing, which is equality of opportunity and outcome in the work place, but we have different methods to achieve our goals.

That is really the key ... they suggestion that "just make companies pay everyone the same" seems like a decent solution on the surface, but opens up all kinds of problems and is based on some faulty stats. But, it makes for a nice bumper sticker.

You have a class of jobs that are straight pay hourly and everyone gets the same and is treated the same. The only way you get more is to either get promoted or just stay there for years and get an annual increase.

But, for professional jobs, and I am thinking of mainly IT, the way to get more is to either negotiate it at time of hire and switch jobs often. Especially working for a non IT company with an IT department, which is really most of those jobs (IT department for a retail store, finance industry, etc).

There are many factors in compensation beyond salary and even location bases comparisons are poor unless you really nail it down at the ZIP+4 level. San Francisco is a good example, working in the city pays more than working outside the city, but when I lived there, the extra money was not even close to worth it compared to the nightmare of commuting in and out of there across the Golden Gate on a daily basis.

I have seen people leave money on the table (and I have done this myself) for extra vacation time, you also need to factor in benefits, and you need to factor in the stability factor. Some people, and from my experience women do this more than men, of staying at the same place too long. You go in at salary X, get an annual raise, but the market rate for these jobs has generally outpaces the X annual raise. But, the benefit is you are in a stable situation, have most likely gained enough trust to work from home more, have a more flex schedule, be able to take off for kids things, you are just happy there, it is a good commute, or there is some fear of the unknown in switching jobs. Unless they negotiated down salary for more time off, the person with the same title that is most likely making the most money is the one most recently hired.

As an example, in my last job, I hired two mid-level DBAs a few weeks apart.
Person A wanted to work 8-4 Monday thru Friday, no weekends
Person B was okay working 8-6 and would cover occasional Saturday work.

Person A was a woman, person B was a man ... I offered person B more money, these are salaried positions. So for the stats, I guess I contributed to the gender pay gap because they have the same title and work in the same place, but did I really because the guy was working 10-12 hours more a week. If Person A, wanted to work the same hours as B, I probably would have paid her more because I think she had a better skill set, but being home by 4:30 was more important to her than the extra money.

The unintended consequence of essentially putting everyone under hourly rules is that flexibility is lost which for some is more important than an extra 5%,7%,10%, whatever %. I am not sure how this works in other professions, but it kills one of the best parts of IT. Most everyone I know at some point has left money on the table to improve other areas of their lives. I can promise you that some government pay decree would fuck this up royally. Fair or not, women still generally are the primary care givers to their kids and eliminating that kind of flexibility in an industry that pays well enough to take care of their family financially and allows the flexibility to be home more probably does more harm to women than it helps them.
 
The narrative of "ignoring facts" is laughable, considering the disagreement stems from questioning the validity of said facts.

RTC and I directly questioned the metholodogy of the facts you've presented and that somehow returns to us as "You're side stepping facts". I'm not even sure where the discussion is at when one side so clearly ignores the basis of it.
 
The discussion of feminism - as fascinating as it is - should probably go to another thread at this point, chaps. I don't know if we already have one open.

RTC - I just do not believe that my points, or my interpretations of the facts will ever match yours, or vice-versa, at this point in your life. Sorry, you just remind me a hell of a lot of the way I thought when I was your age, and my opinions have changed over the last 10 years. Maybe yours will, maybe yours won't. Dunno. But I don't have enough time in the day to debate this with you right now.
 
I know it's a difficult thing to ask, much easier said than done, but this absolutely needs to result in a major crackdown on guns. From what I can understand, none of the people in the nightclub were themselves armed, or else it's safe to say they would have fired back and probably killed the shooter.

I'm not saying go out and strip everyone of guns (good luck with that!), but there needs to be stringent limitations on guns. If you absolutely must have a gun in your life, you should be willing to go through all the necessary hoops in order to acquire one.
 
Just read this too. Fifty people; that's a terrible amount of lives lost. Awful. There's also been a reasonable amount of coverage over here in the UK of the shooting (& killing) of Christina Grimmie. It's pretty sad.
I'm not saying go out and strip everyone of guns (good luck with that!), but there needs to be stringent limitations on guns.
The US should do either, just do something.
If you absolutely must have a gun in your life, you should be willing to go through all the necessary hoops in order to acquire one.
We've discussed this many, many times before. This is a cultural problem. These killings will never stop unless US gun culture changes.
 
You're not going to go out and strip people of guns. That's unfeasible, even from an optimistic standpoint. A lot of people are going to refuse to surrender their guns, and will be willing to use them in order to keep them. It's a nice thought, but it won't happen.

I think these shootings are just as much a commentary on how poisonous the ultra conservative branches of Islam really are as it is American gun culture. We would not allow Nazism to flourish again unchecked in this world - we should therefore not allow Salafism and Wahhabism to continue with its violent ideologies. You can't force a regressive culture to go away unfortunately, you can only do your best to try and discourage it as much as possible, and puncture as many holes in it as you can.
 
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