USA Politics

Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Forostar said:
Are these rational thoughts? Isn't this just unjustified fear, or something else? What do you know about his "who will work with who" factor? And why is this such a dominant thought? Aren't his ideals and plans more important? This is what I mean with vague. Not that Obama is vague. This kind of motivations seem vague to me or not that important, compared to others.

Faith is important. What's left without it? I personally have ZERO reasons to mistrust Obama's capacities. I refuse to believe Hillary and all other negativo's who say: Someone without experience can't do it. That's imo not the strongest argument.

The breadth and depth of the US Government involves corruption on a scale completely unheard of in the western countries of the EU and Canada.  I've been constantly shocked by what I see coming out of Washington.  In Canada we kicked a party out of office and shredded the legacy of a very good PM over a measly $100 million.  People like Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Intartubes) have wasted more than five times that per annum in pork.  It is very difficult for someone to really understand how prevalent lobbying is in the US Government.  The fact is that between 2001 and 2007 it was allowed to go insanely rampant.  Now it is just...rampant on a huge scale.  It's difficult to understand and dealing with lobbyists and government corruption will be a difficult task for whoever's president in January.

Deano said:
Since you guys have thrown it out there, let me pose this question: How many African-Americans do you think will vote for Barack Obama just because he is black and without knowing what his platform is? See? The issue and the questions can be manipulated in many different ways.

I agree that voting for or against someone because of the colour of their skin is wrong.  Even if it favours the candidate I prefer, I would have every voter come out and vote on the issues, even if that meant McCain wins - even if it means Bob Barr wins!  An intelligent choice is always the best way to go.  I am sure many African-Americans are going to vote for Obama because he is black; just like I am sure many old people will vote for McCain because he is a senior, or many young people will go Obama, and so on.  People aren't educated enough to realize platforms are out there.

That, of course, doesn't apply to the members participating in this discussion.  I know that all those who are will weigh their vote very carefully.  Hence why I am trying to come up somewhat neutral here - I see both sides of the story, even if I know the one I want, I will respect the educated, thought out choices made.  It's an affront to democracy if someone votes for Obama because he's black just as it is an affront to democracy if someone votes for McCain because he's white.

Deano said:
My rational thoughts are in the process of being sorted out and will be between now and November. The hunch or fear or unjustified factor comes from being an American citizen for 35 years and an equal amount of experience during those years.

There's a lot of time for either candidate to prove or disprove their own abilities and ambitions.  Again...I am sure everyone here will make their choice after weighing the options carefully.

wasted155 said:
Ok, maybe I am wrong, but to me, the center is the only thing that matters.  A liberal will vote for Obama; a conservative will vote for McCain.  I really don't see much there that will change on those sides, its how they (usually) are.  Those two groups won't change the election.  It will be who can persuade the center of the nation that their course is correct that will win.  Maybe I'm not so clear in words what I see in my head.  In my opinion, there is a rock-- call it the conservatives, and a hard place-- call it the liberals. Its what is inbetween that will make the difference, not what is on the edges.  And, what I mean by that, is that is how I would judge my country.  Not on what the liberals or the conservatives think, but what the center thinks.[.quote]

What he means is that the swing vote wins elections.  Except for the 2000 election.  In that case, the Supreme Court chose.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

@Deano: Well, if that means you're not sure yet, keep us updated. Your last sentence sure didn't sound positive, whatever the reasons may be.

On the African-American voters thing (I knew it'd come back):

A large part of that group generally hopes for a change. A change in their life. By NOT voting on a conservative politician they can cling on to their hopes.

I am not manipulating anything. I am asking questions, trying to find more clarity.

@wasted: I begin to understand what you mean, now, thanks.

@LC: so the fear for corruption is a major issue for the voter,

also to you @ Deano?
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Ok, maybe I am wrong, but to me, the center is the only thing that matters.  A liberal will vote for Obama; a conservative will vote for McCain.  I really don't see much there that will change on those sides, its how they (usually) are.  Those two groups won't change the election.  It will be who can persuade the center of the nation that their course is correct that will win.  Maybe I'm not so clear in words what I see in my head.  In my opinion, there is a rock-- call it the conservatives, and a hard place-- call it the liberals. Its what is inbetween that will make the difference, not what is on the edges.  And, what I mean by that, is that is how I would judge my country.  Not on what the liberals or the conservatives think, but what the center thinks.

Haha, that was clear as mud Wasted. Get some sleep man; you still have the music of the Gods ringing in your ears.

There's a lot of time for either candidate to prove or disprove their own abilities and ambitions.  Again...I am sure everyone here will make their choice after weighing the options carefully.

Of course! I'm just glad (and completely understand) that there is so much international attention on this election. It is a VERY important one.

Well, if that means you're not sure yet, keep us updated. It sure didn't sound positive, whatever the reasons may be.

On the African-American voters thing (I knew it'd come back):

A large part of that group generally hopes for a change. A change in their life. By NOT voting on a conservative politician they can cling on to their hopes.

I am not manipulating anything. I am asking questions, trying to find more clarity.

My mind is in a certain place right now and if the elections were held today I know exactly how I would vote. This isn't a knee jerk reaction however; much can change over the next 5 months.

My comment on African-American voters was merely a commentary; just as the other questions of race were. It's all very silly to me.

I know you are trying to find more clarity Foro; really, it pleases me to no end that you are this involved in the process.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Deano said:
My mind is in a certain place right now and if the elections were held today I know exactly how I would vote. This isn't a knee jerk reaction however; much can change over the next 5 months.

My comment on African-American voters was merely a commentary; just as the other questions of race were. It's all very silly to me.

I know you are trying to find more clarity Foro; really, it pleases me to no end that you are this involved in the process.

Well, this is why the elections are held months after the primaries, yes?  Otherwise there wouldn't be much point.  Perhaps Senator McCain will say and do some things that impress many voters; perhaps Senator Obama will do the same.  As I have said a thousand times - McCain or Obama, we have no where to go but up at this point.  The beauty of having such a hated administration in the White House is that more people are going to show up and vote than in a long, long time.  I think that if the GOP nominee had been someone like Huckabee, this race would be already over.  However, with McCain...it's going to be a heck of a Cluster#$%& to the White House (copyright The Daily Show).
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Perhaps Senator McCain will say and do some things that impress many voters; perhaps Senator Obama will do the same.

Or just as likely: One of them will say or do something to effectively put his foot in his mouth and the other will reap the rewards.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

The two of them seem very committed to running (fairly) clean races, though.  Hopefully we don't see any Swift Vote Veterans For Truth-style ads this time.

What has always made me sad was the way the GOP constantly attacked the patriotism of decorated war vets like John Kerry and Max Leland.  To me, that is just despicable.  It speaks volumes about their true commitment to the soldiers, sailors, and air personnel defending the nation.  I am speaking, of course, of the GOP upper class and affiliates, not John McCain.  I can never see him saying John Kerry is a traitor to his country or uniform.  Though he did vote against the GI Bill.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

wasted155 said:
The center is the only thing that matters.  A liberal will vote for Obama; a conservative will vote for McCain.  ...  It will be who can persuade the center of the nation that their course is correct that will win. 

This may seem simplistic at first glance, but it is fairly accurate.  It's why I think McCain will win, because he is NOT a traditional conservative -- recall that the GOP leadership was concerned about this in the primary -- and is more centrist than the Bush/Cheney camp (which he has been at odds with long before this presidential campaign).  However, if the GOP runs a clean, respectful campaign, they may blow it.  If they attack Obama for being a left-wing liberal, that will stick, because it's probably true.  Race no doubt will affect some people's votes.  I'm not voting for Obama simply because he has promised to raise my taxes.   
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Depending on how much you make, I suppose that's a calculated gamble that the Senator has tossed.  Though we're all likely to be paying far too much for everything if the economy doesn't turn around soon enough.
Addendum:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/ec ... 2008061113

According to CNN's analysis, you need to be making over $603k per annum for the tax increase to be anything large.  The 200k-600k bracket increase is $12.  Any brackets lower than that, Obama's proposed tax plan cuts taxes.  And if anyone makes over $603k, that's awesome and good for them.  But let's make sure that we look at the facts rather than just going "Obama is a tax and spend liberal; John McCain will cut taxes and spending."  The labels aren't that simple on *either* side.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Deano said:
Haha, that was clear as mud Wasted. Get some sleep man; you still have the music of the Gods ringing in your ears.

You are correct.  But, I think LC simplified it.  "the swing votes win the elections." 

I do need a nappy... ;)

OH, and @Foro, glad that helps!
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

LooseCannon said:
And I would like to put this thought out there, too, Deano.  Yes, Obama doesn't have as much experience navigating Washington and the external pressures therein as McCain.  But he also doesn't have as much pressure *caving* to those pressures.  McCain has a massive black mark on his resumé: the Keating Five.  Sometimes the Straight Talk Express lost its way.  Obama may not have the same experience, but he also doesn't have the same major errors.

From that Wiki article:
"However, the report did not address the startling reality that a private U.S. citizen accused of improprieties had called a meeting of five U.S. senators with an agenda dedicated to aiding his financial fortunes, and all five of them actually showed up and allowed him to direct proceedings."

It is scary how easy politicians are influenced by a businessman.  You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

wasted155 said:
You are correct.  But, I think LC simplified it.  "the swing votes win the elections." 

Libertarians are a large chunk of that swing vote.  I doubt many libertarians give Bob Barr a reasonable chance in hell.  This forum sure has not.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

There's a 1 in 20 chance that Bob Barr will win more than 1/20th of the vote.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

I really like these two:

"I'm asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington...I'm asking you to believe in yours."

"What you won’t hear from this campaign or this party is the kind of politics that uses religion as a wedge, and patriotism as a bludgeon....."
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Now we just need to see if those lines will become true, yes?
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Forostar said:
"What you won’t hear from this campaign or this party is the kind of politics that uses religion as a wedge, and patriotism as a bludgeon....."

That's well said and it's really holding up a mirror to the Republicans especially (though the Democrats aren't innocent either), and it's one reason why I really dislike American politics/campaigning.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Exactly what I thought. Obama has the guts to hold up that mirror. No fearmonging talk.

@LC: First we need to see if people will give him a chance.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Neither side is innocent of campaigning with dirty and attack ads.  But it seems to me that the Republicans have more blood on their hands than anyone else.

Foro, Obama has a chance to make good on his pre-election promises: clean campaigning, and speaking to the issues.  There has been little of both so far by either McCain or Obama.  There has been little campaigning period, but from what I see, it has focussed on VP vetters and Obama's bike helmet.  Though there has been some discussion of energy and taxes.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

McCain is campaigning, trying to get disenchanted female voters that backed Hillary.  He is promising, if elected, his government will have more women staff.  He has a powerful woman in Carly Fiorina, a former CEO, doing the talking for him.  How successful do you folks think McCain will be in getting those Hillary voters to swing his way?
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

Genghis Khan said:
McCain is campaigning, trying to get disenchanted female voters that backed Hillary.  He is promising, if elected, his government will have more women staff.  He has a powerful woman in Carly Fiorina, a former CEO, doing the talking for him.  How successful do you folks think McCain will be in getting those Hillary voters to swing his way?

You know, I don't know how to answer that.  Some of these women were pretty tweaked that Hilary didn't get the win, and I have seen some things on CNN about women that are voting for McCain, just because he isn't Obama.  However, many of those women were pretty dedicated Demcrats, and I have a hard time seeing them voting for McCain. 
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

We'll see how it goes in November.  Some people are jaded, for sure.  But I would hope that their displeasure at Hillary losing is overruled by seeing what John McCain stands for, compared to what Barack Obama stands for.  On policy, Hillary and Obama are 99.9% the same.  Anything else...well, sore loser much?  Whiny idiot comes to mind, too.
 
Re: USA Elections: Candidates Comparison

I'd second that opinion.  I was listening to National Public Radio earlier today, and they said that most of the Hilary followers seemed to be prepared to follow Obama.
 
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