Turkey and the EU

I

IronDuke

Ancient Mariner
Turkey and the EU

Turkey continues to express interest in joining the EU (for obvious reasons)
Apparently many EU countries have mixed feelings about this, for many reasons:

Religious heritage - shouldn't be a factor in this day and age, but it is nonetheless. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all other EU countries are primarially of Christian heritages (though maybe not completely so today), while Turkey is almost universally Muslim

Geographic - Most of Turkey isn't even in Europe. The small bit surrounding Constantinople represents only a small fraction of the country.

Historical wounds still fester - The Ottoman Empire wasn't exactly a benevolent ruler in the Balkans. There are alot of ethnic issues still to be resolved there, much like Japan still has issues in its former Empire. Many Eastern EU members aren't comfortable with allowing their former imperial oppressor into the club.

Human Rights - In my opinion, this is the EU''s greatest asset and should be its primary goal for ALL future members. In order to join, the EU makes all members conform to a certain level of democratic and human rights. These rights are fundamental to most of Western Europe and emerging in the East. Turkey, however, is still a grey area. They have made significant reforms lately, and are probably the least oppressive Muslim country in the world, but still have a long way to go.

Population Fears - Turkey's birthrate is much higher than Germany's, Britain's, and France's (the largest members). One German thinker I heard interviewed on the BBC said that there are fears of Turkey's population overtaking Germany's (if it hasn't done so already). If that happens, they'll have a huge influence in the European Parliament and can overwhelm many of the smaller countries.


So what do other people think? I myself think, for a combination of *some* of these reasons, that Turkey isn't cut out for EU membership. They would be better off trying to build a similar organization for the Middle East - Lord knows they need it there!

Duke.
 
I generally support Turkey's EU application.

However, I do not support Turkey's EU membership if the government maintains its current attitude. Turkey refuses to acknowledge another EU member, Cyprus, and refuses to accept, let alone apologize for the genocide on the Armenians.

Fact is that the EU requires these two formalities to accept Turkey to join the EU. Turkey doesn't think it is necessary. Well, the Turks (I do not generalize, "Turks" is just easier to write than "Turkish government) are bloody wrong here.
The Turks want to join a club with fixed rules, yet they want them to change their rules before they join.
Excuse me, but it's the Turks who want to be in the EU. The EU never came and said "Please join us, we're desperate, we'll do anything for you to join"- it was more like the other way around.
This attitude is unacceptable. I don't think it limits itself to these two cases, but it's where it shows. If the Turks don't change that attitude, then, sorry, but no EU for you.
Having said that, I would welcome Turkish membership when this attitude has changed.

[img src=\'http://www.fotw.net/images/e/eu-eun.gif\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]
[img src=\'http://www.fotw.net/images/t/tr.gif\' border=\'0\' alt=\'user posted image\' /]

And you've got to admit- they look great together.


Oh, and...

Ceterum censo, Ducus shouldus chagneus hisus avatarus
 
Hmm, where should I stand? Well, as Dukey said, Turkey isn't actually Europe... So, it would be like accepting Einstein into Maidenfans just because he's bright, even if he doesen't like maiden at all. I don't know how goo the cfmparrison is. The point is, if they let Turkey in, who's next? Israel? They already have a place in Eurovision... [!--emo&:unsure:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/unsure.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'unsure.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Oct 7 2005, 02:29 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Oct 7 2005, 02:29 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The point is, if they let Turkey in, who's next? Israel? They already have a place in Eurovision... [!--emo&:unsure:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/unsure.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'unsure.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
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Why not? The reason why I wouldn't want to have Israel in the EU at the moment is because their policy towards their Arab neighbours is unacceptable, but primarily, I wouldn't oppose an Israeli membership.

I, for one, think that the current goal of the EU should be to unify Europe- but that should not be the definite goal. Why not expand the EU to an intercontinental organization when the time has come? The principles of the EU apply to any place in the world. You'll have to drop the "Europe" part then, but heck, that's a formality. The only thing the EU would need for such a step is time.



Duke should change his avatar.
 
Well, for the time being, I consider the EU an closed club. When the time comes to expand it, I'll be the first one to approve of it. But now isn't the time...
 
im supporting turkey even if small part of this great and beautiful cuntry lies out of the geographical european territory

remember - their culture and history is part of our history and culture. we are living together for a few hundred years beside each other and we can cooperate much more effectively in one union

turks are great and polite people and great maidenfans!
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Black Ace+Oct 7 2005, 02:44 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Oct 7 2005, 02:44 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well, for the time being, I consider the EU an closed club. When the time comes to expand it, I'll be the first one to approve of it. But now isn't the time...
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Saying that as a citizen of a country that is due to join the EU in two years is pretty risky [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] (j/k)

I agree with you there, Ace. The EU has to get itself sorted out before it will be able to do anymore large-scale expansions as in 2004. Memberships of single countries over time will not harm the EU, however. In 2007, Romania and Bulgaria will join, which will take some time for the EU to digest, considering both countries are not exactly the richest. Croatia is a likely candidate for some time like 2010 or 2012, along with Turkey. The thing simply is that Turkey has been wanting to join the EU since 1987, which was before some of the current EU members even existed (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia). In the meantime, the EU has doubled its size and Turkey is still left out. I don't say that was not justified, but I say, if Turkey fulfils all conditions for membership, then let them join.
It is ironic that the key opponent to Turkish membership in the EU is Austria, a country that became member of the EU only ten years ago. Am I the only one to find this somewhat hypocritical?

Anyway, the next countries to seriously apply for the EU, in my book, are the Ukraine, Georgia and FYROM. These will be particularly bitter pills for a lot of current members to swallow and it will take a lot of time until both sides are ready for their membership.

The main focus of the EU should then be the Balkans. If the EU has managed to unite France and Germany in brotherhood, why shouldn't it be possible or the Balkans?
I'm talking ~2025 now, however, so let's not drift too far...



Duke should change his avatar.
 
I think that if the Roman Empire once ruled you, you're eligible for EU entry.
 
[!--QuoteBegin--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why not expand the EU to an intercontinental organization when the time has come? The principles of the EU apply to any place in the world. You'll have to drop the "Europe" part then, but heck, that's a formality. The only thing the EU would need for such a step is time.[/quote]

There should be some sort of organization which all countries of the world can be members, I agree. Like you said, they'd have to drop the word "Europe", of course. Perhaps some word that refers to all NATIONS of the world once they're UNTIED.
The capital would have to move out of Brussels to a bigger, more multinational city. New York, perhaps?
New York would make an excellent HQ for this dreamed union of nations. If only we had a name for all these NATIONS once they became UNITED.

Any suggestions?
 
I'm talking "United Nations v.1.1- A new approach".


BTW, Cheers to Duke, our resident history distorter [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-LooseCannon+Oct 7 2005, 02:08 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(LooseCannon @ Oct 7 2005, 02:08 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think that if the Roman Empire once ruled you, you're eligible for EU entry.
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Good god, I hope you're joking!
 
So, does that include Iraq? The Roman rule was just a few years (116-118 IIRC), but it did exist...
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Oct 7 2005, 03:56 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Oct 7 2005, 03:56 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is ironic that the key opponent to Turkish membership in the EU is Austria...
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[/quote]Because of the labour market perhaps?

The main reason why I wouldn't like to see Turkey among EU countries at the moment is human rights. Have you seen footage of the 8th of March women's demonstration? Special units were beating women with clubs and kicking into them when they collapsed to the ground. I don't think that should be part of civilized Europe.

[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Oct 7 2005, 04:35 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Oct 7 2005, 04:35 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Cheers to Duke, our resident history distorter
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[/quote] Can't that be said about most historians [!--emo&:P--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/tongue.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'tongue.gif\' /][!--endemo--] ?
 
Both French and Austrian citizens have been promised referendums on Turkish entry. A recent European Commission opinion poll showed 70 per cent of French voters were opposed to Turkish entry, and 80 per cent of Austrians.

There is talk of a deal over Croatia, an historic ally of Austria, that might lead to a change in Austria's stance against Turkey.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-charlotte+Oct 7 2005, 04:25 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(charlotte @ Oct 7 2005, 04:25 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]The main reason why I wouldn't like to see Turkey among EU countries at the moment is human rights. Have you seen footage of the 8th of March women's demonstration? Special units were beating women with clubs and kicking into them when they collapsed to the ground. I don't think that should be part of civilized Europe.
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True enough, but look at it this way:

The EU requires respect of human rights for any member.
Turkey wants to become an EU member.
Ergo, Turkey must respect human rights, else it won't become a member. The Turks will recognize this sooner or later.

However, if the EU says they don't want Turkey to become a member, what other motivation is there for the Turkish government to respect human rights? Yalnizca.

I'm thinking about the Turkish people when I say "Turkey must join the EU". If the EU declines Turkish membership, it terminates the hope for Turkey to become a perfect and stable democracy. Ever since Atatürk came to power, Turkey has introduced democratic reforms purely for the reason of siding with Europe and moving away from the Middle East. If the EU finally says "we won't have you in here", hell could break loose. Turkey could feel it will do whatever it wants to, as apparently, nobody is interested in, and this could certainly become a threat for the EU as well. It's just the fucking selfish politicians who don't want to see that, and sadly they can spread their dangerous ideas to the people.

I know Turkey isn't ready to join the EU yet. Much has to be done. But it can be done. And it should be done. And hopefully, it will be done.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Perun+Oct 7 2005, 06:47 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Oct 7 2005, 06:47 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]If the EU says they don't want Turkey to become a member, what other motivation is there for the Turkish government to respect human rights? Yalnizca.
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[/quote]Great point.

Although I don't agree that it's just the goverment who disrespects human rights in Turkey, you are right. That kind of motivation would in end effect help the Turkish people.
 
The fact is that the country of Turkey is not in Europe and therefore should not be allowed into the EU. It's as simple as that. The Turkish Government are simply trying to leech off the success of others, this will have dire consequences on the lower classes in Britain especially as a "ghetto" situation is likely to materialise in the next few years as the standard of housing and infrastructure is getting outdated. GB and Ireland should spend their money curing their own problems before trying to solve others.
 
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